1976 johnson 35 surging

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Hi folks, am having probs with my motor.It's a 35RL76S serial # 0000002.When running,the motor seems to surge in power delivery.It will get to about 12-14mph,then any attempt to get any more results in the revs rising & falling with no increase in power or speed.[it used to go about 20mph].I have changed the fuel tank,line,bulb and fittings as I thought it was sucking air,but this didn't work.I also put in a new diaphragm and gasket kit in the fuel pump,and put a kit thru the carby.My fuel economy has improved,but it still does not deliver it's power smoothly.I have also changed the ignition coils which resulted in a little smoother operation,but the surges and misses still happen,the revs don't seem to rise & fall as dramatically.I had posted this before and got some great help from fireman 57,and he suggests to throw this to some of the guru's out there,Joe Reid...dhadley...etc. I really need some more help here,guys. Thanx in advance.....Rosco
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Two more quick points...my charging system does not work[elect.start]so the armature plate might be sick.Secondly,in my posting,I asked for help from a Joe Reid. Mr Reid,if you see this,please pass it on to Joe Reeves. Just give me a minute to get my foot out of my mouth !!
 

OBJ

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Dec 27, 2002
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Mornin' rosco...<br /><br />Have you looked at the prop hub? Might be slipping. Pull the prop off and look at the hub from the back side. Look inside the hub where the rubber hub meets the metal. If it looks a little tore up or you can see little balls of rubber, maybe slipping. To verify this, make an index mark from the rubber hub to the over to the metal hole the hub is in. Use some marker that won't get washed away. Run the engine in the water and after the problem occurs, pull the prop and check the index mark. If it's not lined up, the hub is slipping. A prop shop can replace it.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

OBJ,thanks for the quick reply.Good morning to you in Ohio.In Sydney,It's nearin 10pm... I had not considered the hub,as the engine definitely has the variation in revs,not like a transmission slip.But I will have a look at it tomorrow[or tonight in Ohio].Thanx for the start<br />- <br />Rosco
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Hey,OBJ,<br /> Checked the hub today and all looks fine.While I eagerly await plan B,I think I'll try to check the capacitors,coils etc. that live under the flywheel. Any help is most welcome... thanx again<br /> Rosco
 

Dhadley

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Feb 4, 2001
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

You mentioned the armature plate may be stuck. Is it? Or does it move freely. <br /><br />BTW -- even if it is stuck it shouldnt prevent the charging system from working. If it has one. A rope start model (R) didnt come with one from the factory. Obviously someone could have converted it.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Dear Dale,<br /> I actually said the armature plate might be sick,not stuck.Must be my messy handwriting.sorry.When I saw a rectifier,I assumed it came with a charging system.I will never assume again.The only reason I mentioned the lack of charging was to give as clear a picture as possible.I don't care if it charges or not,my concern is with the surging & missing problem.I'd love to fix that before we go to luxuries like a charged battery.
 

deeepdiver1

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Apr 18, 2005
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

A friend of mine had the same problem with his 35 Johnson. He found that if he left the engine cover off that it would run fine. It turned out that he need a new gasket kit.<br />You might want to remove the cover and see if it makes any difference.
 

fireman57

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Aug 24, 2004
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Some background to this post by private email. Maybe it will help.<br /><br />It is still mucking up.Took it out on sunday,and it's no better .I even changed the ign.coils and it made no difference.It's killing me.<br /> So far, I've changed the fuel tank and lines & fittings, put new gaskets and diaphragm in the fuel pump, put a kit thru the carby, and put in a new pair of ignition coils.<br /> The surging seems to be present pretty much from the start of the trip now.The "variation" in the surge seems to be less now.It doesnt seem to rev & drop as much...It seems smoother, but with a definite miss that just won't let you apply power without randomly spluttering and carrying on.You can back the power down,you can go to w.o.t, and it makes no difference.It will still travel at about 14 mph,but the delivery of power is laboured by this surge. The gasket kits have made a difference with the fuel economy, I seriously reckon I'm only using 60 - 70 % of the fuel I was using.When I run the bowl dry when flushing, it runs for about 90 seconds after I pull off the fuel line. Before,it would be lucky to go 25 secs.<br /> Once again,I place myself and my motor,at your mercy. The only thing I can think to add to the info is that the battery does'nt charge thru the engine. It may be that other bits in the armature plate have also gone west. I have absolutely no idea,so I eagerly await your response.<br />The ignition coils were pre assembled, so I had little choice. The hoods seem to fit snug over the plugs and it seems a good connection at the business end. In the interest of giving you all the symptoms, when it's idling during flushing, the revs seem to climba few hundred,reach a peak about 400 rpm above idle,then it pops & misses and drops the extra rpm,then the process starts again.After it has warmed up , this stupidity stops and it idles reasonably normal again.Please add this to all the other info, and I hope it helps.<br /> If you are too busy to follow this thru,let me once again thank you for all the help.Win,lose,or draw, you have been of tremendous help and I really appreciate that you take time out of your private time to help a bloke 10,000 miles away.Either way,I'd still let you know of any outcomes. I look forward to letting you know ,one of these days , that the 35 is running like a dream.<br /> Should I re-post the thread starting with all the things we've done, and how would we go about summoning the help of the guru's you mentioned ?<br /><br />Rosco, It could be an exhaust leak. Good call deeep. By the way deeep, welcome to iboats.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Thanks for the responses,guys...hey fireman,howya doin? <br />I'll try the open air approach tomorrow,but I can add to it by saying that the rear part of the prop has more of a coating of black soot than it used to.I noticed it after the shop changed my impeller.If this could lend weight to the exhaust theory,then factor it in.<br />Hey deeep,if you solve this with your very first posting,you might end up promoted.Just so long as this exhaust thing isn't a load of hot air !! Also , exactly which gasket kit did the trick for your buddy? thanx,guys rosco
 

fireman57

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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Doin' alright rosco. Have a dead truck down the road I need to fix. The reason you wan to run it with the cover off is to check for an exhaust gasket leak. If it runs fine with the cover off then you will want to pull the powerhead and change the exhaust gasket. Rosco I forget, does the surging stop after it warms up or not? What I mean is does it still have some surge at idle? Does it restart easily after it is warmed up?
 

Rabbitdawghunter

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Jun 20, 2003
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147
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Is it possible that you put your floats in upside down, that will cause a surging condition. I know because I chased the same problem for almost a month until I finally figured that out. The needle can't come out of the seat far enough to have full fuel delivery to the carb bowl. Will idle and putt around OK, but WOT just won't happen without the surge.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Hey fireman and rabbitman...Yes it does it especially after warming up.I will take her for a run and check it with the lid off,although had a look for a visual sign of leaks around the head,and all looked fine. Mr rabbit, in the past it ran like a treat.about 6mths ago,it started to muck up.While inverting the float is within my capabilities,I didn't touch the carby till well after the drama's started.But your input is appreciated.One day,I'm sure the exact same thing will have happened to someone out there in iboats land. Fireman to the rest of your question.... at idle,it doesnt run smoothly.It will burble along at [all rpm's are guesses]600-700rpm,then it will increaseto a crescendo of about 1100rpm,then half pop&half sneeze,then drop back to idle.Then 10 secs later,it'll do the same.After a couple of minutes of this,it then idles ok.on the water,it starts easily every time.That is , every time I remember to connect the fuel.and open the vent.oh,and squeeze the bulb....Started the electrical investigation today.Got the nut off the flywheel,and do you remember who I loaned the puller to?? <br /> Thanx guys...keep in touch
 

Joe Reeves

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Feb 24, 2002
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Your explanation points to a fuel problem, being either a air/fuel leak between the fuel pump and the fuel supply, a faulty fuel pump, or a fouled incorrectly adjusted carburetor.<br /><br />I'm assuming that the problem does not consist of a sudden instant change in rpms which could be contributed to ignition or a slight amount of water entering a cylinder, nor is it a case of the engine suddenly screaming away due to cavitation/ventilation (prop drawing air). If I am in error here, let me know.<br /><br />From what you've said, it appears that the surge is a slow gradual up and down surging of rpms, which as I've said above, would pertain to fuel.<br /><br />Compression should be in the 100+ psi range and even on all cylinders..... is it?<br /><br />With the spark plugs removed, using a spark tester of some kind, set to a 1/4" gap, the spark should jump that gap with a strong blue lightning like flame..... a real SNAP! Does it?<br /><br />Spark plugs should be Champion UL81J plugs, set to .030.... are they? Any other s/plugs will not function properly.<br /><br />Does pumping the fuel primer bulb when this problem takes place have any effect, if so, what effect?<br /><br />Fuel pump... leave the hoses intact but remove the pump from the engine mounting. Attach nuts to the back portion of the mounting screws so as to seal the pump as if it were mounted. Pump the fuel primer bulb. If fuel escapes out that back pressure hole in the pump, discard it and install a new one. I don't recommend rebuilding it as one would not know if a slight goof was made, resulting in a continuation of the problem which would have you diverted off on a false nerve wracking path (been there).<br /><br />If all is well so far, and even if it isn't, double check the carburetor work, making sure that the fixed brass high speed jet is absolutely clean (located in the bottom center portion of the float chamber).<br /><br />(Carburetor Float Setting)<br />(J. Reeves)<br /> <br />With the carburetor body held upside down, the float being viewed from the side, adjust the float so that the free end of the float (the end opposite the hinge pin) is ever so slightly higher (just ever so slightly off level) than the other end. And when viewed from the end, make sure it is not cocked.<br /><br />(Carburetor Adjustment - Single S/S Adjustable Needle Valve)<br />(J. Reeves)<br /><br />Initial setting is: Slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.<br /> <br />Start engine and set the rpms to where it just stays running. In segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the S/S needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running.<br /> <br />Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting. <br /> <br />Note: As a final double check setting of the slow speed valve(s), if the engine has more than one carburetor, do not attempt to gradually adjust all of the valves/carburetors at the same time. Do one at a time until you hit the above response (die out or spit back), then go on to the next valve/carburetor. It may be necessary to back out "all" of the slow speed adjustable needle valves 1/8 turn before doing this final adjustment due to the fact that one of the valves might be initially set ever so slightly lean.<br /><br />When you have finished the above adjustment, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.<br /><br />Now, what are you going to do with the rest of the day? (grin)
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Dear Mr. Reeves....All that expertise AND a sense of humour !! .<br /> Thankyou so much for your quick response. I left the fuel tangent after I changed tank,etc.Maybe a little too soon !.When I put the kit in the carby,I did not touch the hi-speed jet.I couldn't get it undone as I didn't have the correct tool [now you make me feel like a shamed schoolboy].<br /> I will perform all the tests you asked,then I will post the results.Should you have run out of things to do altogether,you may like to follow this thread from it's start.It was titled..Johnson 35 surging from rosco 11.<br /> Thankyou for your help and look forward to sorting it out............ross
 

fireman57

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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Rosco, Rabbitdawg and Joe R. could really be on to it here. I agree that the float might not be set correctly and is not letting the needle drop out properly for your fuel. Like Mr. Reeves says make sure that the jet is clean. Get some carby spray and shoot it through there and blow it out with air.
 

Joe Reeves

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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

You can clean that HS jet where it sits with a piece of single strand steel wire (mechanics wire), something thick and strong enough whereas it will go thru the jet but will not flex easily.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
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157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

In the words of Dr.Nick Riviera....Hi Everybody !<br /> Today was a quantum leap in this problem.The bloody breaker points. One was set at 24 thous.,the other at about 13 thous. Now they are both at 20. The motor has never idled this well before. I can't wait to properely adjust the low speed needle,and watch this baby purr.The plugs have been pretty wet fouled,so now I can adjust a little more accurately,hopefully this will disappear as well. <br /> I tested the compression at 122 each,which I thought was pretty good. The points were clean and tragically gapped,and once set right,the engine was rid of the rough idle problems it was having[see posting].<br /> I will still revisit the carby. Though I couldn't get the hi speed needle out,I did spray the cleaner liberally.Now I'll do as Joe says & clean it proper. I will also cop the tip on the float angle.I left it parralel,not raised...and as I am a pedantic xxxx,it definitely needs adjusting again.<br /> The fuel pump check is also on my list. For the first time ,I am confident.Every other rectification has resulted in the same rough idling,leading to the test drive showing no improvementin the surges.Once I do the rest of the tests and corrections[Saturday] ,the "fishin' mission" is on the water Sunday. Wish me well,my American friends !!!!<br /> Rosco
 

fireman57

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Aug 24, 2004
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Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Good show. That'll teach that bloody donk to mess with you. Just make sure that the flywheel is torqued to the proper foot pounds. Don't know what they are but should be in your manual. You don't want to shear a key or worse. Don't catch them all.
 

ross patti

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Mar 15, 2005
Messages
157
Re: 1976 johnson 35 surging

Hey fireman...<br /> The hard part is not to get too confident.The fat lady ain't sung jack yet !!<br /> I re-did the low speed adjustment as per the exquisite words of Joe Reeves.It now burbles. The idle is even,of a consistent nature, and has a beautiful temperament.<br /> It idles real purty.<br /> If there is a God,this turnaround in it's idle will extend to a change in the rest of it's performance.The final position of the screw is leaner than before,so i'm hoping this will also help my plugs wet fouling issues.<br /> Mr.Joe Reeves....You said I should have Champion plugs;I have the NGK equivelants that I will replace. I still have not done the rest of the tasks yet. Do you think the problems with the points could cause the surging ? I know you pointed to fuel [ which is where I spent five frustrating weeks investigating ] so I don't want to seem to ignore your advice by jumping at the points. But,you should hear it idle...<br /> As it is now Thursday evening in Sydney,there is only 3 more sleeps till tester Sunday.......... Bring it on !!<br /> Thanx again,guys
 
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