'80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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1980 Johnson 35 (J35ELCSM) will not attain wide-open throttle. Bought in December '04 with boat and had not been run on lake for 2-3 years (?) but was run in barrel. As of this writing and several fix attempts and trips to the lake later, the engine runs much better but still will not attain WOT. Although it no longer shuts down/cuts off when reaching +/- half throttle, it will not do more than what I judge to be 1/3-1/2 throttle. It bogs and then slows to a speed below that attained just prior to the bogging down. If throttle is advanced only to "magic point" and not one whit further, it will attain the highest speed it is capable of at this time and maintain it. Will advance to full throttle, faster than I will rev it to, in neutral with no load. It also seems to have a miss because the motor jerks side-to-side slightly (like it's shaking its head "no") both at idle and under load and doesn't seem to run as smoothly as it should be capable of doing. Even when early morning is cold, engine starts immediately and idles rather well with a slightly advanced throttle. Engine does not appear to be overheating since I can hold my hand for varying periods against cylinder head and walls immediately after running test trials on lake or in barrel and tell-tales are working. No powerhead noises identified but there are slight "clinking/clanking" noises seeming to come from the area of the flywheel.<br /><br />Based upon posts found on this forum and with Johnson manuals, I have done the following:<br /><br />Replaced original, new NGK B7HS spark plugs with Johnson manual specified plugs, Champion L77J4, and checked compression to determine whether or not motor might be worth working on (read spending good money on). According to MY compression gauge, one cylinder has 135 psi compression and the other has 136 psi. A really good/expensive gauge might show a greater disparity and will buy one when I can find a GOOD one—any suggestions? Although tickled spitless at the compression readings, I hold them suspect because of the motor's age and the cheap gauge. The original owner was, however, a dealer and second owner did not keep it very long "because of failed health". Uh-huh. Yeah buddy. I don't buy unseen land in Florida, either, unless I want to open an alligator farm. I have been known, however, to buy a couple of alligator farms in my time......<br /><br />Replaced the motor-side ignition wiring harness which was badly spliced here and there and mostly burned up and would crumble in your fingers, including copper wire. Because of expense (~$200) and unknown condition of the motor, I fabricated my own harness using one gauge larger on all wires to reduce possibility of resistance-heating within wires except for the largest wire which was replaced with same-size. My harness would pass for a factory harness except for a real Johnson guru who might note the wire color and main plug differences. Took eight hours to fabricate but fit exactly and engine fired and ran immediately upon trying for the first time.<br /><br />Full overhaul of carburetor with Sierra kit including new float and float needle and seat. I both soaked the carb and parts in cleaner and blew out with compressed air and then used spray carb cleaner to clean all channels and jets and ensure flow-through—three times. I'm a belt, suspenders, and chair man—I found that if I put on my suspenders and belt and then sit down in a chair, my pants will NEVER fall off—assuming I didn't forget to put 'em on in the first place. Hate gettin' caught with my pants down. Adjusted float to specifications in both positions. Replaced the slightly nicked, low-speed needle with a new Bombadier/Johnson needle.<br /><br />Replaced all four fuel lines in motor—2 large and 2 small, one of which was the fuel return line. Don't know what the other 1/8" hose was but replaced anyway because both small hoses were original equipment. Used good wire ties on small hoses and secured to point that hose won't rotate on fitting. Used good quality steel circle clamps (screw-type) on the two large hoses tightened until hose will not rotate on fitting. I read about unwanted gas aeration on some forum posts.<br /><br />Checked tank pick-up to make sure it was clear and replaced tank fitting and tank-to-motor fuel line and bulb with new. Also bought a new, metal gas tank but have not used it because paint over-spray inside will flake and requires cutting my new fuel line to install an in-line filter. That's what you get for nearly $100 these days.<br /><br />Installed new Bombadier/Johnson fuel pump with new interface gasket. Wow, $$$!<br /><br />Installed new silencer-to-carb gasket.<br /><br />Adjusted ignition/fuel synchronization with throttle rod per manual instructions. Local guru said I had done it correctly but then he sent me on a wild-goose chase explained later.<br /><br />My timing light will not work on this motor with specified plugs so have not checked timing.<br /><br />Both plugs are firing and present a steady spark glow when revved using a gadget in-line to test for spark. No arc-ing seen when running motor in barrel at any speed at night in pitch dark.<br /><br />Based upon the recommendation of a local guru, reopened the carb and recleaned the medium- and high-speed components with spray Gumout—full can. All tubes, cast channels, jets, etc. are clear. He suggested cleaning tubes and jets with proper-sized wire (clean, not ream). I did that to the small tube but not to the jet behind the bowl drain screw because it was unnecessary and potentially damaging. All to no avail. Nothing was amiss to start with.<br /><br />That's it to date. Other than a vacuum leak in some area that I'm not aware of (hidden) all I can deduce is that either there is a weak electrical component or it needs some serious synchronizing/tweaking by a very experienced mechanic—waaay outta my league. On an automotive engine I might suspect spark advance problems. Closest dealership to me is a 130-mile plus round trip away so can't just run out for parts, advice, or service.<br /><br />It's now up to you folks what I try next. Crawling under the flywheel is not my idea of fun because I dislike and am not really proficient/comfortable with electrical problems although I know enough about the work to be sufficiently dangerous. I will take it on, however, and can follow good instructions. My experience is primarily with automotive mechanics for 40+ years and none of my cars/trucks has ever seen the inside of a mechanic's garage, except for wheel alignments, in all that time......just to let you know my "level of inability".<br /><br />Suggestions please and thanks for your "figgerin' on it time".<br />Oldetymer
 

Solittle

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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Well a big WELCOME your way Oldetymer -<br /><br />That is the best (and longest) description of things goin on with your engine that I have read here. Almost made me want to put a bookmark somewhere and pause for a nap. Anyway - on to the figgerin -<br /><br />Do you have the OMC shop manual for this engine? If not it can reduce most of the mystery of these things and I recommend that you get one. As to the problem - seems that some troubleshooting be in order -<br /><br />1. Will the spark jump a 1/2" gap with a bright blue snap? If it won't that would point to a potential electrical problem.<br /><br />2. Can you take it out and when it starts to stumble & fart squeeze the primer bulb? If it speeds up that would point to a problem in the fuel delivery system.<br /><br />The descriptin of the problem points to crud in the carb but your description of what you have done seems pretty thorough. Do you know of anyone who has a engine like yours that you could swap carbs for a test?<br /><br />Compression is fine & no need to get another guage.
 

fireman57

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Aug 24, 2004
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Wow what a description. No need to ask for further information. SoLittle is right on the spark issue. Make sure that the spark is blue, not orange or yellow.
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

SoLittle,<br /><br />Thanks for the welcome and the reply. Did come out a bit long, didn't it? However, it's GIGO doncha know--garbage in, garbage out. If you don't know everything I do about the problem and the attempted 'fixes', you can't make a proper diagnosis/reply. Probably a lot of folks with good information are going to skip it because it's so long.<br /><br />As I said in the post, I got tips from this forum and carried them out using the Johnson (OMC) Service Manual......all $90 worth including parts, service, & owner's.<br /><br />Spark will jump MORE than 1/2" but, although brilliant blue at beginning and end, as you stretch it out there is some red showing with the blue in the spark stream equally off both coils. Either that or my bifocals are acting as prisms. Not dull orange, however. With the motor turning and a north wind blowing, I could hear no 'snap'. Actually, it's not a 'spark' but a 'spark stream', if that means anything. It WILL bite you.....I discovered.<br /><br />Squeezing the bulb during it's failed attempts at WOT does absolutely nothing to change performance.<br /><br />I know of no way to test another carburetor on my motor shy of buying one and I'm bettin' that's a helluva trip to the bank. If it's the carb, I have no idea what I'd be able to do differently even though it DOES sound like it.<br /><br />What's the next rabbit outta your hat? Thanks again.<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

fireman57,<br /><br />Thanks for the input. You must have posted while I was responding to SoLittle. Whatcha think about the red I 'think' I saw in the spark stream and not hearing a snap?<br /><br />RE:
Wow what a description. No need to ask for further information.
I used to write operation and maintenance manuals in the heavy construction and aerospace industries from scratch before they put me in charge of the operations. Got my workin' degree in journalism--you ever know a journalist who wasn't windy?<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

G DANE

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Nov 24, 2001
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2,476
Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Hi oldetymer - good reading, you cant hide your profession.<br /><br />I had a couple of these motors, same vintages. Great motors. <br /><br />You gave one information, "It iddles well with slightely increased throttle" Now not to insult you, I dont know how familiar you are with motors, but are you sure it isnt running on one cylinder ? Is it only cold iddle that takes increased throttle ? I once had one chip a reed valve blade, gave symptoms some like yours, only I also ran it healthy and then felt the significant loss of power. <br /><br />How do the spark plugs look like when its been run, both same colour and dampness ??<br /><br />Checking if it is running on both can be done by connecting one of the spark blug wires to an old plug, and lay it in contact with ground, and then start motor on the other cylinder. Then try the other plug. Does it act equal ? Dont just pull a plugwire while its running, if current has no way to ground, that can fry pack by itselves, though a little rare. If not, with your compression and spark, I'd suspect a reed problem. ( not that much $ and efford to fix. ) You can see the reed leaves, by removing carbureator and using a flashlight, look into intake. The reeds are two round shaped things, and the leaves behind should be covering all the holes perfect. They dont all have to rest 100% on frontplate though, just be complete.<br /><br />Look a little into this and then post back. Sorry for my lousy spelling and ugly gramatics, I'm a Dane, who just learned English at school.
 

fireman57

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Aug 24, 2004
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

oldetymer no problem. Your spark seems fine. Blue and at least 7/16". You said that you did not clean the jet behind the bowl drain. You have to do this on any carb rebuild. I also don't know what clinking clanking noises under the flywheel would be from but you might want to investigate that.
 

rwcreigh1

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Feb 13, 2005
Messages
199
Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

i would say it is the reeds or even could be the exaust gasket (manifold).will it run at wot with the cover off?if so replace the gaskets.
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

G'Day G'Dane,<br /><br />I think you may have hit upon something with the "running on one cylinder" test. It is NOT running on just one cylinder but I don't think the top cylinder is carrying its weight, leaving the bottom cylinder to do most of the work. First I'll answer your question about idle—yes, it only requires an increase in throttle when the engine is cold. Secondly, the discoloration/deposits on these new spark plugs with maybe two hours' use are light-to-medium brown with more surface area affected by discoloration/deposits on the bottom plug than on the top. Most of the deposit can be rubbed off both but the bottom retains more discolored material. Wetness, after running at idle with some acceleration is noticeably more evident on the top plug than the bottom. Tested this by putting the electrode end of both plugs flat on a paper towel to soak up the unburned fuel. Looking at the stain densities left by both, the top plug is definitely much wetter than the bottom perhaps by a factor of two.<br /><br />Thirdly, it's difficult to insult a fellow whose motor is performing poorly in spite of his efforts and who is missing the best fishing time of the year so don't let that concern you. My ignorance of these motors is abysmal and I know it so no insult perceived or taken. And finally, your English is as good as many and better than some whose native language is English. Don't bother yourself into a complex, ol' buddy. I studied both Spanish and German formally and my Spanish is now pathetic and my German ranges from nonexistent to Berlitz. Besides, English with all its irregularities is a bear to learn as a second language in my opinion.<br /><br />Back to business. Doing the test as you instructed using an old spark plug in the wire from the coil and grounded, I found the following:<br /><br />1. With top cylinder spark plug wire pulled and running on the bottom cylinder, the motor will still fire and run but with a moderate increase in the side-to-side jerking and rough running. Acceleration in neutral seems to be a little more affected and degraded. I'm not going to accelerate very much, if at all, in the barrel in gear—I've already replaced one water pump for having done that and feel lucky that was all the damage done. This cylinder has the drier plug with slightly more burned-on deposits.<br /><br />2. With bottom cylinder spark plug wire pulled and running on the top cylinder, the motor needs a little more throttle to start. There is definitely an increase in the side-to-side jerking and rough running at idle. Acceleration at idle, however, seems to be much more affected by losing the bottom cylinder than by losing the top. With just the top cylinder, the motor will not stay running with the throttle in the low idle position—slowest speed. It will stall and shut down quickly. This cylinder has the wettest plug with fewer burned-on deposits. Mind you, this is all terribly subjective, perceived by "ear" and by "feel" and by anecdotal evidence. I have no tachometer to do a decent check of possible power loss.<br /><br />3. In summary, it SEEMS that the bottom cylinder is doing the lion's share of the work while the top cylinder is still functioning and will crank and run the motor with no load. During both tests, the 'dummy spark plug' put on the wires indicates that spark IS going to both cylinders.<br /> <br />If I understand the information in your post correctly, the above could indicate a chip or other problem in the reed valves. The left leaf valve assembly (looking at the front of the motor) seems fine. The visible portion of the right assembly also looks okay but I can't see the entire assembly clearly enough to say that it definitely isn't damaged. Like so many people, when I inspected the leaf valve assemblies, I was looking for a preconceived notion—filth and visibly bent. Neither is the case but having focused on that, I could have missed seeing a chip. I will have to find a manifold cover gasket before I pull the manifold to inspect the assemblies more carefully. That is quite a chore in my third-world area requiring many miles of driving and no small amount of time. Do you (or anyone else reading this) have other suggestions that might require more gaskets/minor parts before I go to the time, effort, and expense to buy just a manifold gasket?<br /><br />So, Doc Dane, what is your diagnosis based on this unscientifically derived, unverified data? Thanks for the help—I may be getting closer to a "fix"......or not. Frustration is beginning to set in and doubts are replacing hopeful anticipation. My wife keeps saying, "We're just going to have to buy a new motor" but I can't afford that. Either this one runs or I get out my canoe paddle...again. I'll get over myself.<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

fireman57<br /><br />I did not mean to imply that I didn't CLEAN the jet you referred to; I just didn't poke around in a brass jet with a steel wire unnecessarily. I cleaned it in situ with spray cleaner to ensure it was open, removed it, cleaned it and the seat again for good measure, and they are spotless. Gumout and Deep Creep are good things.<br /><br />I'm gonna hafta save the little clinking/clanking noises chase until after more service manual study and when better weather sets in. At this point I'm shooting blanks into the dark on that one other than knowing there are lube and other regular maintenance service points under there that may have been long neglected. I wouldn't know what to "investigate" for at this point.<br /><br />Thanks again and don't abandon the effort yet.<br />Oldetymer
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Richard 1<br /><br />Thanks for the back-up push toward the reeds and for offering the exhaust gasket failure possibility. Removing the cowling does not affect the motor's performance when trying to attain WOT on the lake.<br /><br />Hang with me. Although I hope not, there may be more help needed and four heads are better than three...or two...or ...... I'm not counting my head in that. I ran outta options. That's why I finally posted here to put the botheration hex on the forum. Yawsuh, we got hoodoo heah......hit jus' don' wuk on outboards—or maybe just not for rednecks.<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

G DANE

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Nov 24, 2001
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

oldetymer<br /><br />I dont think you are running on one, If you were, there was no possiblity of starting on the sick cylinder, a single working cylinder has to work 4 times the normal, dragging a "dead" fellow. Forget the reeds. From these tests I still believe you have an fuel/airmix problem at high RPM's and you have a iddle adjustment to do too, as it is flooding a bit at iddle. ( plugs are always wet after a period of iddle though ) <br /><br />Did you put the little centergasket back in when you did the carb. It is positioned around the tube that leads fuel from the high-speed jet in the buttom of the carb bowl, to the ventury in carb throat. If it is missing, it is flooding at high-speed attempts.<br /><br />Are you sure your floaterhight is set right, and floater right in ?? (On some models it can be fitted upside down, cant remember if this one can ) When the carb is lying upsidedown, the floater should be resting parallel to carb body. You did remember to clean the high-speed jet, located in buttom of floatbowl, behind drain screw, didnt you. Blockage of it will give what you have. <br /><br />One other thing to check, your motor has 3 ways to increase RPM: 1 at first it is only increasing spark advance. 2 when the little roller on the cam follower right in front of flywheel is exactly right between the two marks on cam, the related link should start to open throttle. Better a tad later than before, which will lead to sneezing and bogging !! If this link falls from the carb lever you will get trouble too. 3 By the lever left of and below flywheel. This lever should be adjusted lengthwise by the little screwed-on thingy so throttle is fully opened when stator under flywheel is turned fully to full throttle and resting against the rubberstop, having full advance. These settings are essential. <br /><br />The Iddle mixture is a different story, but lets start by you turn the iddle mixture needle to buttom without any force, and back out 1 1/2 turn. Investigate all this and post back. I am not replying rapidly, as there is time difference.
 

G DANE

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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Hey - I just saw you are down from the delta !! I was in New-awleeeans last November :D
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

G Dane,<br /><br />You have succeeded in awakening me from a shade-tree mechanic's worst nightmare—somebody having worked on an assembly before you who left something out. As a shade-tree mechanic, I learn new systems and their possible theory of operation during disassembly. If something ain't there, I not only don't know it but I don't/can't/won't put it back.<br /><br />Reading your thorough description of "things that had to work", lights and sirens started going off in my head. Last idiot in the carburetor left out the nozzle gasket (PN316332). Since the new kit services more than one carb, the leftover pieces didn't bother me and there was nothing in MY carb that indicated the need for a gasket with a cloverleaf-shaped hole in it. Strange configuration. Installed the gasket, went to the river and the thing runs great. Outta the hole and on full plane runnin' like a bat outta Hell in under 7 seconds.<br /><br />Thank you so much. The Internet is a marvelous thing when used properly. Also thanks to you others who chipped in and helped and to iboats for both this forum and parts offerings. Nobody locally could isolate the problem but a dude in Denmark was able to fix an old Delta Rat's motor in two days. Been at this for four-plus months.<br /><br />Still need to get rid of the side-to-side shaking like something isn't properly tuned or the engine is 'missing' for some reason AND get under the flywheel for at least doing the maintenance requirements. Storms are preventing any follow-up work right now and put my phone out of commission right after I downloaded the "fix" on Saturday morning. (Boat was running by Saturday afternoon!) May yet plow up another snake so please stand by for further developments.<br /><br />Thank you again, and thanks to all who jumped in. Now I have a fishin' machine and my wife's off my back with her derisive, "We're just going to HAVE to buy a new motor." Not with this forum around.<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

G DANE

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Nov 24, 2001
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2,476
Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

Good to hear, I'm only glad to help.<br /><br />Motor on boat, in water. The iddle misture screw is just above carb intake, the brass screw visible at front of intake silencer. Warm motor up to normal operating temp. Run WOT for at least a minute. Stop motor. Screw iddle micture screw all the way in, till it seats GENTLY. Torquing this can damage needle and seat. Reverse it 1 3/4 turn. Start motor. Turn iddle down to lowest smooth RPM. Let motor pull boat at iddle in forward gear, unrestricted movement. Now turn iddle screw in, in 1/8 turns, waiting for motor to respond to each new setting. Continue untill motor begins to sneeze or miss, then best setting is within 1/8 turn back OUT again from this. If iddle gets too high during adjusting, just lower it a bit. Many motors load a bit up at iddle, due to to rich mixture, and quit now and then. Good result from this procedure is if carb is clean inside for debris and varnish from old gas. Good luck.
 

G DANE

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Nov 24, 2001
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2,476
Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

The clicking and clancking under flywheel - do a search here for "wobling armature plate" or something like that, Joe Reeves once gave a brillint free fix for that.<br /><br />You didnt mentions what part of the delta - Biloxi ??
 

oldetymer

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Mar 23, 2005
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

G Dane,<br /><br />Biloxi is too far south to be Delta--it's a coastal town. Anything south of Vicksburg or north of Memphis, Tennessee is considered out of the Delta. I live out in the country off Highway 61 ("Blues Highway"). Closest towns are Shaw & Cleveland. I'm about 40 minutes east of the Mississippi River and about halfway between the north and south boundaries of the Mississippi Delta I mentioned.<br /><br />Thanks for the adjustment info. I'm at 1.25 turns out on the adjustment needle right now. 1.0 is too lean (stumbles) and 1.5 seems a tad too rich (touch of bogging and no improvement in revs). RPMs don't vary much so I watch out for stumbling, etc. I NEED a tachometer and will get one along with a speedometer now that the motor is running and I feel safe with the expenditure. Will play with it more following your guidelines. I usually allow about 15 seconds between changes for the motor to settle.<br /><br />Wobbling armature plate sounds like a probable diagnosis or at least a really good place to start. Need to do a little service manual research tonight before I continue. Will search soon as I find a "search box". You may hear from me again.<br /><br />Thanks again for all the help and thoroughness--you never know what little seemingly insignificant piece of information might turn the tide. That's why I tend toward "overkill" in providing information.<br /><br />Oldetymer
 

angus63

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May 20, 2002
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Re: '80 Johnson 35 HP Won't Attain WOT

OT Look near the top of this page, and you will see the red SEARCH link under the reply buttons.<br />Try to use multiple descriptive words in your search (use subject and content) so your not up all night panning thru topics.<br />Good Luck
 
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