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  1. #51
    Commander wbeaton's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by rkelly01 View Post
    Did OMC recently file for bankrupcy protection (Chapter 11) because of the poor product they were producing? I think it was the 60 degree engine they started engineering?
    That's not why they filed bankruptcy, but the Ficht injection didn't help things. Call it poor management and a down turn in the recreational products market.

    My vote for best motor...

    Whichever one I'm selling at the time!

  2. #52
    Lieutenant Commander bassboy1's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by hitace View Post
    you are in the past. that happened in 2000 and was mainly because of the FITCH RAM motors.It was a thrill to take one of them motors out because you never knew if you were going to live or die.and the blame would go to the EPA.If it wasn't for them OMC would have never build that crap
    Not necessarily due solely to the Ficht motors, but they helped. OMC started buying out all sorts of boat companies, to package their motors on (much like Brunswick does these days). Now, the only way for a company like this to live, is to buy out these other companies, but, one had to be on top of his game their. If they didn't buy enough, the company would go under, and if they bought too many, the same would happen. Well, then an I/O craze came along, and the OMC stingers did okay, but mercruiser seemed to dominate the market. Then, the four stroke craze came along, and OMC didn't quite keep up fast enough. Bad management, as wbeaton said, overbought, and didn't keep up the times sending the company into bankruptcy. Unfortunately, they went under, as aside from a few lemons, they made a superior product. Luckily, I got seven of em. And that number is often growing.
    http://www.shareaproject.com/pages/p...,p,482,00.html
    Click above to view my 1542 jon boat project.

  3. #53
    Senior Chief Petty Officer Navy Jr.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Those looking for new mid-range engines have some deals to choose from. A sampling:

    Honda:
    115hp $300 rebate thru 2/29/08
    135hp $350 rebate thru 2/29/08
    150hp $350 rebate thru 2/29/08
    All come with 5-yr extended warranty. Warranty offer good thru 3/31/08.

    Mercury:
    Most engines come with 5-yr extended warranty. Offer good thru 4/15/08.

    Suzuki:
    Most engines come with 6-yr extended warranty. Offer good thru 3/31/08.

    Yamaha:
    150hp $500 rebate thru 3/31/08
    Most engines come with 6-yr extended warranty. Offer good thru 3/31/08.

  4. #54
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    Wink Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    If you are somewhat mechanically inclined, and will perform regular maintenance
    on your motor, then the best motor for you will be the biggest o/b that comes
    closest to your budgeted spending amount, and that fits on your boat.

    If you are not mechanically inclined, then the best o/b for you is the one sold
    by your local dealer, who will service it for you.

    If there was any best or worst, quality wise, it would already be well known.
    With the competition that exists today, a worst o/b would fail to survive
    in the marketplace.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    I only buy older 2-strokes. What I've found is maitnence, not brand name, is the key to a good outboard. Doing basic things like Decarbing, fogging the engine for storage, changing the impellar and plugs yearly, and keep the carburator in top shape go a long way toward a reliable outboard you will be happy with. If you neglect them, or take them to a dealer that does a half-assed job, you are going to have trouble. I've even owned one of the often maligned Force motors, and so long as you kept up maitnence, it was as reliable as any other OB I've touched.

  6. #56
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by hitace View Post
    you are in the past. that happened in 2000 and was mainly because of the FITCH RAM motors.It was a thrill to take one of them motors out because you never knew if you were going to live or die.and the blame would go to the EPA.If it wasn't for them OMC would have never build that crap
    So trying to reduce the amount of rubbish pumped into your environment is a bad thing?

    The other manufacturers managed to comply with EPA and didn't die. As someone else said, produce a bad outboard and the public will kill it. That's what happened here. Manufacturers get years of notice about the changes coming and it's up to them to make products that comply, not complain when their produces are rubbish...

    And since so many posters have made reference to 'older' engines, I'd like to add to that particular debate. Someone needs to draw a line in the sand and say that anything built before 19xx is no longer acceptable for use. These old engine may well be reliable, but they are outdated and they wouldn't even get on the dial of the pollution meters. They are horribly ineffecient and are adding heavily to our already overburdened environment. Time to retire these oldies, no matter how good you think they are, and get something more in line with looking after the future, not the past.

    Chris...........
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



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  7. #57
    Captain jbjennings's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Chris, I'm thinking that using the new synthetic oil in the old 2-strokes is very helpful as far as pollution (I've actually started using it in the interest of environment, dirty motor, etc.) and I can really tell the difference in the amount of crud it gives off. Also, I'm suspecting if you compared the amount of pollution given off during the manufacturing process for new motors, it might kind of cancel out the negatives of using the oldies. I certainly hope that noone pulls the "can't use 'em" thing here....I'm sure the engine manufacturers would just LOVE that...along with new outboard dealers. I'd be just sick if I couldn't use my "old faithful" anymore.
    JBJ

  8. #58
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by jbjennings View Post
    Chris, I'm thinking that using the new synthetic oil in the old 2-strokes is very helpful as far as pollution (I've actually started using it in the interest of environment, dirty motor, etc.) and I can really tell the difference in the amount of crud it gives off.
    Good to hear...

    Quote Originally Posted by jbjennings
    Also, I'm suspecting if you compared the amount of pollution given off during the manufacturing process for new motors, it might kind of cancel out the negatives of using the oldies.
    That's one thing to also consider. It is true that over the life of product 'x' which is of older, less environmental friendly, but with more longevity against product 'y', a newer, less polluting, shorter lived product, the real differences may be negligible. But as manufacturing processes improve, and laws become tighter, that equation will tip in favour of the newer product.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbjennings
    I certainly hope that noone pulls the "can't use 'em" thing here....I'm sure the engine manufacturers would just LOVE that...along with new outboard dealers. I'd be just sick if I couldn't use my "old faithful" anymore.
    JBJ
    Already happened in many countries of the world. They don't phrase it quite that way, they just make a standard that all engines must reach. If it doesn't reach the standard, it's out! USA, most of Europe and Australia have the largest recreational markets in the world. Therefore those countries are the largest recreational contributors to the pollution problem. It is only a matter of time (hopefully a short time) before lawmakers open their eyes and see it. Most of the world is a signatory to the Koyto protocol. Once USA signs, it must do a lot of things to get on track. I'll bet recreational engines, be them outboards, snow mobiles, jetskis, aeroplanes, lawnmowers or 4WDs, will all come under the microscope.
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



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  9. #59
    Commander wbeaton's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by achris View Post
    And since so many posters have made reference to 'older' engines, I'd like to add to that particular debate. Someone needs to draw a line in the sand and say that anything built before 19xx is no longer acceptable for use. These old engine may well be reliable, but they are outdated and they wouldn't even get on the dial of the pollution meters. They are horribly ineffecient and are adding heavily to our already overburdened environment. Time to retire these oldies, no matter how good you think they are, and get something more in line with looking after the future, not the past.

    Chris...........

    A comment like that can sure angry the blood. I won't say much on it as it will only upset me. I will say that I am not only a collector of classic outboard motors, but I am also an environmental professional trained in environmental and earth sciences. To say that something shouldn't be used anymore because it has become inefficient is not necessarily a environmentally sound reason. In fact it is just the opposite. The basis for environmental policy in North America is rooted in recycling and reuse. To trash any working piece of equipment means it must be replaced with something new, which adds to our over-consumption of goods. A lot of resources are consumed in the production of goods. With the amount of use some of these old motors get it just simply does not justify the production and subsequent pollution caused by the production of a new replacement. Regulators make new legislation so that future equipment will be more efficient and pollute less, but they understand that as equipment ages it will eventually fall out of service. They also realise that as these motors fall out of service the ones remaining will account for so little of the total amount of pollution that they effectively become negilable. Therefore, there is no need to ban all motors (etc) that are of a certain age or type. This doesn't mean that certain areas can't have there own legislation (like lakes that don't allow carbed 2 strokes), but it is rare that any functioning piece of equipment like this would be banned from use completely.

    Furthermore, to say that we should turn our back on history and the achievements made by our ancesters is appalling. Next you would say that we should not be allowed to use and enjoy antique cars or airplanes? Or play old radios or television sets. Where do you draw the line on efficiency? Do you buy a new refrigerator or toaster very 10 years because they are less efficient than new ones?

  10. #60
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by wbeaton View Post
    Where do you draw the line on efficiency? Do you buy a new refrigerator or toaster very 10 years because they are less efficient than new ones?
    Please show me a refrigerator or toaster that is 10 years old and still working efficiently and I'll buy it!

    I am not saying that we should ignore the past. I'm just pointing out that the continued rescue and 'undying love' for all things old will hold back the progress into the future. By all means use a product, but when it reach the end of its life, let it go... Don't keep reserecting it.

    But the day will come.... believe me! (It already has in many countries)

    Chris...........
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



    1972 Bertram 'Bahia Mar' 20
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  11. #61
    Petty Officer 1st Class hitace's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by achris View Post
    So trying to reduce the amount of rubbish pumped into your environment is a bad thing?

    The other manufacturers managed to comply with EPA and didn't die. As someone else said, produce a bad outboard and the public will kill it. That's what happened here. Manufacturers get years of notice about the changes coming and it's up to them to make products that comply, not complain when their produces are rubbish...

    And since so many posters have made reference to 'older' engines, I'd like to add to that particular debate. Someone needs to draw a line in the sand and say that anything built before 19xx is no longer acceptable for use. These old engine may well be reliable, but they are outdated and they wouldn't even get on the dial of the pollution meters. They are horribly ineffecient and are adding heavily to our already overburdened environment. Time to retire these oldies, no matter how good you think they are, and get something more in line with looking after the future, not the past.

    Chris...........

    They are horribly ineffecient how so? they are much cheaper to buy.parts are much much cheaper and they last a lifetime.I can get a 1955 evinrude for 40 bucks and fully rebuild it for about 250. much much cheaper then a new motor.and you know what that 1955 evinrude will outlive any 2008.

    NO ONE WILL EVER STOP ME FROM USING MY OLD MOTORS NOOOOOO ONE YOU HERE ME NO ONE.THEY WOULD HAVE TO PRY THEM FROM MY DEAD COLD HANDS.I WILL RUN CARBED 2 STROKES TO THE DAY I DIE.I WILL NEVER RETIRE MY OLDIE'S NEVER!!!!.I DO NOT USE THEM EVERYDAY BECAUSE MOST ALREADY HAVE MORE HOURS ON THEM THEN ANY 4 STROKE WILL EVER HAVE.DONT WORRY THO THEY WILL STAY RUNNING BECAUSE I RUN EXTRA OIL IN THEM

    ARE YOU A NEW OUTBOARD DEALER?

  12. #62
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by hitace View Post
    They are horribly ineffecient how so? they are much cheaper to buy.parts are much much cheaper and they last a lifetime.I can get a 1955 evinrude for 40 bucks and fully rebuild it for about 250. much much cheaper then a new motor.and you know what that 1955 evinrude will outlive any 2008.

    NO ONE WILL EVER STOP ME FROM USING MY OLD MOTORS NOOOOOO ONE YOU HERE ME NO ONE.THEY WOULD HAVE TO PRY THEM FROM MY DEAD COLD HANDS.I WILL RUN CARBED 2 STROKES TO THE DAY I DIE.I WILL NEVER RETIRE MY OLDIE'S NEVER!!!!.I DO NOT USE THEM EVERYDAY BECAUSE MOST ALREADY HAVE MORE HOURS ON THEM THEN ANY 4 STROKE WILL EVER HAVE.DONT WORRY THO THEY WILL STAY RUNNING BECAUSE I RUN EXTRA OIL IN THEM

    ARE YOU A NEW OUTBOARD DEALER?
    No, I'm not!!! And don't start the 'cold dead hands' thing either!

    If the lawmakers follow suit with the rest of the world, and they will eventually, you will have no choice.

    Sorry Hitace, it's time you woke up and smelt the pollution...

    Chris...............
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



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  13. #63
    Petty Officer 1st Class hitace's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by achris View Post
    No, I'm not!!! And don't start the 'cold dead hands' thing either!

    If the lawmakers follow suit with the rest of the world, and they will eventually, you will have no choice.

    Sorry Hitace, it's time you woke up and smelt the pollution...

    Chris...............
    well if they do ban old 2 strokes everywhere it wont stop me from using them that is for damn sure.If someone ever tryed to take away my old irons they would get shot.Go try and sell your new motors else where

  14. #64
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    I certainly hope you do take a shot at someone... Then they can lock you away, and you'll never use those antiquated pieces of polluting junk again! Take that moron heston with too....

    Bye for now...
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



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  15. #65
    Captain jbjennings's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Chris,
    Surely you can see the logic in WBeaton's post. Most old 2-strokes that are in running condition are in the hands of guys that know how to work on 'em and can appreciate the engineering that made them so reliable. There aren't that many still out there being used. To outlaw antique outboards to fight pollution is just not sensible. The percentage of the total pollution by antique outboards and cars/motorcycles (you get the idea) is so miniscule that I would think anybody could see how ridiculous it would be to outlaw them. Like you, I want to be a steward of the land, but I really feel I'm helping the environment by using these oldies rather than buying new, as WBeaton tried to explain. Even in California (our most strict state environmentally) lawmakers understood this and made an exception for emissions standards for antique cars. I hope there will be a similar exception for old outboards. 2-strokes are being pretty much phased out here with the exception of the new, cleaner Direct injection E-tecs. I'm all for innovation but I don't see a need to plague a FEW fishermen and collectors that adore their old motors when we ignore the real environmental problems in the interest of keeping money flowing to you-know-who. I have to wonder how many engine manufacturers, dealers, etc. have the monetary influence to exert on lawmakers to cause this legislation to be enacted in the other countries you speak of in order to force people to buy new motors. I know you to be a very helpful person and always enjoy reading your posts, but your viewpoint on these oldies really scares me. I have several old motors, like most people that still run the old ones, and can't use 'em all at once. Again, fewer and fewer are being used without legislation making them illegal. I firmly believe the type of legislation you're speaking of (not you) is not only unjustified, but darned spiteful to owners of old motors. That being said, I do respect your opinion, but hope you might change it.
    Sincerely,
    JBJ

  16. #66
    Moderator achris's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    JBJ,

    Thanks for your post... I understand where you are coming from. I accept that people will continue to own these engines. I don't have a problem with that either. I do have a problem when all I hear is how great they are. They were great, in their day, but their day is well and truly over. Nobody will stop people owning these old engines, but they will stop them using them in public waterways. It will happen, like it or not. As stated earlier, you can buy them for almost nothing, because that's what they are worth, nothing. And they won't outlaw the engines, they'll just introduce emission standards that all engines must meet. If you can make an old outboard meet those standards, by all means keep using it....

    If we adopted the attitude that 'a few won't hurt' we'll end up with a world full of things that people have made exceptions for. And in the end all those 'few' will add up the a lot of things contributing to the problems... Is that the world you want your children to inherit?

    Chris..........

    Just to clarify my position... I have no interest in any business of any type, engine sales or otherwise. These opinions are completely personal and have no 'hidden agenda'. I am interested in a cleaner world, with nice clean air that we (and our children's children) can all breath without gas masks!
    The world takes on a whole new perspective when viewed from 100' below...



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  17. #67
    Petty Officer 1st Class hitace's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    [quote=achris;1563881]I certainly hope you do take a shot at someone... Then they can lock you away, and you'll never use those antiquated pieces of polluting junk again! Take that moron heston with too....

    Bye for now... [/QUOTESHUT

    Edit; We will not allow the intentions of what was posted here, on this forum.......
    I'd ask that we stay on the right side of the fence here and cool it down a bit, please...
    Thank you!
    Last edited by walleyehed; January 26th, 2008 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Bashing and language.

  18. #68
    Commander wbeaton's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    [QUOTE=achris;1563892]If we adopted the attitude that 'a few won't hurt' we'll end up with a world full of things that people have made exceptions for. And in the end all those 'few' will add up the a lot of things contributing to the problems... Is that the world you want your children to inherit?[QUOTE]

    Yes, that is precisely the world I want them to inherit.

    Old outboards are only a drop in the bucket of recreational product pollution. I run my motors a lot in the summer, but I only go through maybe 100L of fuel in a season. So explain to me why your boat is more earth friendly than my dozens of motors? You are punishing the few for the problems of the many.

    Inefficient as they may be, small kickers still don't use much fuel or create that much pollution. Now larger motors create larger problems, but few are running classic/antique outboards much larger than 40 hp and fewer still run them as their primary motors. Now the larger motors mostly came along in the 1960's. Motors built during and after the 1960's are much more efficient than their predecesors and pollute much less. Many of those designs lasted into the 1990's and are not as inefficient as you would have us believe.

    Also, any motor that runs reliably for 50+ years is a great motor by definition.

  19. #69
    Commander wbeaton's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by achris View Post
    Please show me a refrigerator or toaster that is 10 years old and still working efficiently and I'll buy it!
    Also, I don't understand this quote. Does that mean your appliances don't last 10 years or that you re-buy them every 10 years? Its not important it just bothers me that I don't understand the comment.

  20. #70
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Quote Originally Posted by wbeaton View Post
    Also, I don't understand this quote. Does that mean your appliances don't last 10 years or that you re-buy them every 10 years? Its not important it just bothers me that I don't understand the comment.
    My 196? Kelvenator refrigerator (built by American Motors) running in my basement is quieter than my new one in my kitchen. It keeps beer nice and cold too.

    My 2000 Johnson 2 Stroke 70 doesn`t run as nice as the new fuel injected motors but I feel it will out last me I`m 39. One of the last OMC`s I think I`ll keep her even though tempted by the new Yamahas.
    Only three companys build vehicles, GM Ford & Chrysler is how I think being a car nut. I should keep my last of the American outboards last of the OMCs.

  21. #71
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Chris, take no offense by this but, you certainly seem to have an agenda here. My question is..... Why is it you have not entertained the idea of using a synthetic bio-degradable two-stroke oil for these older less efficient outboards. They are available, are they not? Seems to me that would keep everyone happy.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    Not to mention that the mfg of a new 15 hp outboard uses new resouces and causes more mfg polution before it even hits the showroom floor. Also, the impact of modern electronics mfg processes are way more eco UNfriendly than the processes of the 1950s. Knee jerk eco types look only at fuel burn emissions while somewhere on the planet the air and water is being heavily poluted by the manufacturing of their "modern clean running" ob motor.

  23. #73
    Petty Officer 1st Class 4.0l sahara's Avatar
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    Default Re: WHAT IS THE BEST OUTBOARD ENGINE TO BUY??

    I believe the use of the synthetic oil is a good thing. But old out board are not the problem it's the factories and power plants that need to be cleaned up. Thats the first thing the gov should work on is the major polluters like that. Also with the war and the bad economy I don't think the gov is thinking about old outboard and boat motors to much right now. I personally like to 2 strokes and hope they make a come back with new technology. Like right now all new dirt bikes and quads are going to 4 stroke. But with the invention of dfi for 2 strokes I could see them making a come back. Just like cars in the 60's half the gas that whent in came right back out the tail pipe. But now cars have cats,egr,evap and many other things that help allot. If they applied stuff like this to 2 and 4 strokes it would really help clean stuff up. Think about it if you put a cat on a 2 stroke dfi it would be a pretty clean motor. But as for old outboards there is no need to make laws against them it wouldn't help thats not the problem .

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