HD 25 1946-1950 (?) Want to make it run again.

[CalicoKid]

I have a Johnson outboard model HD 25 ser# 554695 that belonged to my grandfather. It has not been run in 20 years or more. My father says it has a bad coil as it would run until warm then quit but not seize. The old coil is out but I have it.Where can I find a new coil?Today I pulled out the spark plugs, squirted some penetrating oil in the cylinders and pulled on the starter several times. It got harder and harder to pull intil it wouldn't turn anymore. Did I do something wrong? I've had this motor for several years and when I would occasionaly pull the rope it always felt nice and free with good compression.Are Champion J-6 the correct plug?What kind of lube goes in the gearcase? I drained it and purged out the gunk that was in there with modern gearcase oil and filled it up. I don't intend to run it this way but wanted fresh oil in there just to protect the gears while it is sitting in my garage.Lastly I was wondering if I could narrow down the year of this motor by the serial number.Thanks!

[Paul Moir]

CalicoKid, the s/n pegs it as a '47, not that there were any changes '46-50 on that 2.5hp.Champion J6J is the original plug. They don't make it anymore but it's been replaced by the J6C, which is pretty well identical.I wonder if the penetrating oil loosened some crud which is causing the piston to drag. Can you turn it backwards at all?The coil is no longer available, but fortunately they arn't like the later coils that broke all the time. Try asking in the webvertize section of AOMCI.org, or try tcoutboards.com.I think those gearcases took a thin grease, lubriplate #105. But I'm sure someone who knows for sure will be along. Good luck!

[CalicoKid]

Thankyou Paul, after a little more research I came to the same conclusion on the model year. I can't turn it with the recoil or by the prop. I'll need to remove the tank and try a wrench on the flywheel nut maybe.I would like to replace coils, condensors, and points at once I think. If twin city outboards has these items would it be new old stock?

[MCM]

You might also try Americanoutboard.com

[alcan]

Hi CalicoKid Just to add to Paul's good info. The original spec called for 90wt Mobil Gear oil. Now days you my use any modern 80/90wt. I do not belive there would be anything wrong with using the lubriplate #105 either. Before you write off the coil as not working. Try and test it. Some older small gas engine shops or long time outboard shops have this equiptment. You may have to wait until they have time to mess with it though. The deal is most of the time these coils are fine ( they do fail,just not often) it is the point set that causes the no spark problem. I would suggest removing both sets of points. Clean both the contacts and the little bakalite sticks that actuate them. The sticks rub a cam ground onto the crankshaft. This opens and closes the points. These sticks become stuck and either do not move or move enough. Be very caeful not to break the sticks. These point sets are fairly expencive now days if you can find them (my opinion). The good news is, this type of point set wasn't meant to be as disposable as some later models. So a good cleaning is as good as replacement in all but the worst cases. Go ahead and clean up the ignition, reassemble it with the so deemed bad coil and see what you get. You may need to hit the used market for a coil,but give her go first. The fuel/oil mix for these models is and was 25:1 using Mobil outboard oil. OMC had a thing with Mobil oil back then. Today any good TCW-3 outboard oil will do. Some confusion exits today about this fuel\oil mixture thing for these earlier OMC outboards. This is do to a couple of reasons. One reason was to make mixing more cut and dried (easier) for Joe average fisherman. Quite a few instrutions call for a half pint oil to the gal of gas. This is correct info, how ever it may not pan out to equal 25:1. But every household in America has a one cup measure. Another deal was that you could also use a good quality 30wt non-detergent auto oil if the was no outboard oil to be had. They (OMC) recomended mixing this at a higher rate of 16:1 to insure safety. I would squirt some 25:1 mix in the plug holes and in the main carb hole (intake) at the front center of the block, and see if it loosens up a bit. Also check that nothing else is binding up as well. Lower unit turns free,etc,etc. Take your time while working on this motor, be careful not to break things, unless there is a defenate reason to dissemble parts of it, Don't. If it anin't broke don't fix-it. You may do more harm than good. Most of the time just a cleaning of the fuel system,ignit system, prop shaft and lower unit oil is all that is needed.

[CalicoKid]

Thankyou very much everyone. I have checked out and saved all links. I also emailed twin city outboards about getting part numbers for and availability of my ignition components and am awaiting a reply.Alcan I appreciate you taking the time to post such a thorough reply it really helps. I'm going to soak the motor overnight and see if it turns tomorrow. I really don't want to take anything apart that I don't have to either because like you said I'd probably break it with my luck. I did pull the prop and the shaft and hub look good to me. The prop shaft seems to turn freely as far as there is play in the gears but since I don't have neutral I can't spin it. Also I'll need to pull the flywheel this week to inspect and service the ignition like you suggested. I hope to get more leverage over the motor with a wrench on the flywheel nut. Is this an acceptable method of turning the motor?Thankyou all very much.

[CalicoKid]

I removed the gas tank and flywheel and the motor now turns over freely. It turns out the flywheel nut was never tightened after the suspect coil was removed so something was binding between that and the recoil starter.There were 3 broken wires: The sparkplug wire was broken at the solder connection to the coil. I tacked it back on temporarily with an iron. The lead going from coil to points had a ring terminal missing on the points end. The wire that goes between the base and points also had a broken terminal at the points end. I put new ring terminals on these wires, the crimp on type, I'd like to find the original type though.After repairing the wires and reinstalling the questionable coil and condensor I hooked on the sparkplugs and grounded them with test leads. If I turn the prop fast by hand I get a good spark on both plugs. One of the points arcs occasionally. I'm happy to see spark but I want to look at the points more closely and make permanent repairs to the wiring.In order to access the cam and those bakelight sticks to I need to remove the base the coils are mounted on? Is this the timing base?? How is this motor stopped while running, I don't see a kill circuit?

[alcan]

Hi KidGlad to hear you have spark to both plugs. A nice solder job to the terminals should do it. Good job on the high tension lead, that can be a little tricky. Ok you have the fly wheel off, lets start here. Under the flywheel is a magnetic rotor (rotates between the coils), this just slides off the crankshaft, note the index key. The coils, points,and condencers,etc are mounted to the stator plate (the part you turn with the throttle control lever). On the under side of the stator plate is a tunnel with a tensioning screw in the end of it. You will need one of your longer screw driver to loosen it. This will allow you to remove the stator plate. A new condencer or pair of, might be an affordable good idea. As I stated earlier, unless your points are really far gone just redress them nicely and call it good. The last price I was quoted on nos points was around $90. a set, thats $180 for the motor. During your exploration and work you will note a ground tab on the Stator. When the throttle control is slid to the stop position ( or somewhere near there) this tab will connect and ground the ignition stopping the motor. These little motors were and are oil lovers. They need the oil for sealing purposes as much as luberication. Since most of these gems have done way more time hanging on the shed wall rather than the transom they become all sticky gooey. Inside and out. If you want you could soak the cylenders with a little Seafoam. Available at most auto part stores. this may loosen up the rings a bit. In most cases just a little mixed fuel does the trick. Point gap .020 plug gap is .030. The fuel system. This can be some what of a challange. There is a small bronze or brass screen on top of the petcock in the tank. It is soldered to the petcock. It is delicate, a tooth brush used carefully works to clean it. There is a cork float in the carb bowl mounted to side. This float is probably dry and delecate as well. It should look shelaced/varnished. this float is mounted to a brass rod. This rod is the float bowl valve ( moves up and down) The float is attached to the rod via a small wire clip at the top, this clip indexes to a notch in the rod. To remove this for cleaning,remove the screw under the rod on the bottom of the bowl. Remove three screws and the cover from the top of the bowl. Very carefully spred the clip and push the valve out the bottom of the bowl. Starting positions for the needle valves are the same as for any 1950's OMC motor. 1 1\4 turns out from lightly seated for the low speed and 3/4 turn out on the high speed. The low speed is the dial at the top of the tank. Turn for low speed air\fuel mix adjust and push it down for prime to start. The high speed needle is on the front of the motoe just under the cowl. Just a word of causion here, wear safety glasses when watching the primer function. You will be able to hear it working, this no doubt will make you curious and you will have to look. Don't get an eye full of gas. Have fun, lets us know how you make out.

[alcan]

Hi kidIf you post your Email adress, I will try and email you all the part#s you need along with some other useful info.

[CalicoKid]

Thankyou so much for the great information alcan, what a huge help!I removed and disassembled the fuel tank petcock tonight, it was 100% blocked with hardened gunk. It took me a while to get it clear with carb cleaner and a small brush and ring nail. The screen is soaking in cleaner. The gas tank itself has a layer of flaky varnish inside it too. I hope the carb doesn't look the same but I suspect it will. I managed to spray carb cleaner in my eyes despite your warning, ouch!Since time is limited that's as far as I got tonight besides giving the outside of the motor a good cleaning so I can stay a bit cleaner myself while working on it. I am going to print your posts and take them to the garage with me when I dig into the carb and stator plate assembly. Again, awesome advice!I don't think I'll be needing new points, not at that price. Everything I've seen so far on this motor seems to have seen very little use and abuse other than the broken wires and all the gunk I've found in the fuel system. I still get spark with the throttle slide in the stop position. I'll have to check that out.Any info provided is very much appreciated, you can send the part #s etc. to this address: gramps-hd-25 at hotmail.com (replace at with @).Thanks for all of your time and effort.

[CalicoKid]

I have the stator plate removed, cleaned and ready for permanent wiring repairs. I did find the ground/stop tab, it had gunk on it so that might have been why I still get spark at 'stop'. I also finally got the petcock screen nice and clean and reassembled the petcock itself. I am pleased with the condition of everything I come across on this motor so far other than the gunk. I wonder if it will get all gummed up again if I try and use it occasionally? I purchased a used coil as well so I will have a backup (if it is good).I don't understand the high speed jet adjustment, it isn't on the carb itself, does it bleed air?

[sdowns]

Calico, can you re-post your e-mail address? I've been trying to send you pages from the service manual that should answer your question but they keep bouncing back. Or reply to me at sdowns@identitytoday.com

[CalicoKid]

I've finished repairing the wiring by crimping and soldering new ring terminals on two wires and re-soldering the high tension wire to the coil as it just had it tacked on for the purpose of testing before. Both high tension leads had cracked insulation under the clamp on the bottom of the stator plate and one was bad enough that it had a hole in it but was taped with electrical tape at some point. I insulated these spots with some super 33+ tape and slid heat shrink tubing over the area on each lead. Hopefully this will suffice, if not I'll be searching for new leads. The ends of my leads look nice as does the rest of the insulation.My next job will be cleaning the carb and then on to the water pump if need be. I see on the parts diagram that there is an eccentric and rotor rather than an impeller. Did this part need the same kind of service as an impeller water pump or is it pretty much the same thing? It looks to me like I can get to the water pump without removing the gear housing.The parts catalog has been a great help!

[sdowns]

You are correct. The HD has a "wobble" pump rotor located just inside of the prop shaft behind the prop. I'll quote the old Johnson service manual: "To install new pump rotor (HD and TD models), proceed as follows:1. Remove propeller nut cotter pin.2. Remove propeller nut.3. Remove propeller.4. Remove water pump housing(held in position by three screws).5. Lift old rotor from eccentric.6. Install new rotor - slip over pump eccentric.7. Reassemble all parts in reverse order of above."It can't get much easier than that! No frozen drive shaft stuck to the powerhead to fight with and no water tube to re-align.The rotor system was very effective in low HP motors, however the drawbacks with rubber rotors were obvious with age disintegration that takes place with rubber over time, but most important is the contact with grease if the gear case had bad seals. The grease would tend to swell the rotor lowering the effiecentcy of the pumping action. The reason OMC went to the vained impeller that we are all familiar with is because it was a dual action pump for both high and low speeds for the higher HP motors.A few folks still make reproduction rotors for the HD: http://www.vintageoutboard.com/ http://www.grove.net/~noff/marx.html I hoped this helped.If you have any more questions, send me an e-mail sdowns@identitiytoday.comand I'll be more than happy to send you pages from old service manual concerning the HD/TD.Seth

[CalicoKid]

Thanks a lot sdowns! That sound's like a piece of cake to me. I'm going to look into getting a new rotor or two (spare) ASAP.I'm only able to get a couple hours a week set aside for this motor but hope to have it test run before Christmas. I would like to show my appreciation again to all who have taken the time to help. The above are the best explanations I could have expected to get! Thanks!!

[CalicoKid]

I cleaned out the carburetor tonight. Everything was surprisingly clean from the needle valves to the float chamber to the check valve and screen. The carburetor cover gasket is missing however which leads me to believe someone cleaned this carb out before me and never replaced the gasket. The part # is 43-302,415. If I cannot find a replacement easily can I cut a new gasket out of gasket making material? And if so what kind is it and where can I get it? It looks to me like a black paper material.

[Paul Moir]

Yup, make your own. You should be able to get gasket material from the local auto parts place. Up here I get it from Canadian Tire (among others places), but NAPA, etc, ought to sell little rolls. The only real important thing is to get the same thickness paper as what you've got. A paper hole punch comes in real handy when making these, also a real sharp utility knife.Don't worry if you can't find the black, rubberized stuff. Just spread an ultra-thin layer of gasket sealer over the regular paper stuff. The object here is to not have the possiblity of a chunk of sealer breaking off and clogging something up. Don't bother with cork or (God forbid!) rubber gasket material. Cork is great for oil, but not great for fuel. Normal rubber swells and cracks with fuel. I haven't had good luck with neoprene and alcohol laden fuels. Paper; no problem.

[CalicoKid]

Good deal that's what I'll do then, thanks!

[tashasdaddy]

calico kid, to help keep it from gumming up, turn your gas off with the petcock and let the motor run until it it stops.

[Solittle]

If you have the tank off of the engine and want to clean out the crud inside rinse all the gas out, if any, put a hand full of ball bearings inside add about a half can of carb cleaner. seal all openings and shake vigerously. Pour the results into a tall chilled glass with shaved ice - - -- - no - - - no - - strike that last sentence.

[CalicoKid]

OK now you guys are reading my mind... That was going to be one of my next questions, the gas tank. Great suggestions, I really appreciate it! Oh by the way I did get a taste of carb cleaner by accident, not very good, I wouldn't recommend it!

[MCM]

The taste is nothing compared to what it feels like in the eye's

[CalicoKid]

Yep it stings allright, I have yet to spray it into my nose or ears but I'm not finished with this motor yet.I got the gasket for the carb made and it turned out great. I've reassembled the carb and am beginning to reassemble the rest of the motor as all repairs have been made. I have to clean out the gas tank yet and I think I am going to try the method described by SoLittle but use marbles since I don't have a handfull of ball bearings on me at the time. Oh I still need to service the water pump too so I think I'll be ordering the impeller/rotor this weekend.

[BoatBuoy]

nuts and bolts will work too. Someone, somewhere recommended roofing nails.

[CalicoKid]

I'm soaking and agitating with marbles right now.Question, Does the flywheel need to be pressed or tapped onto the top of the crankshaft or just tightened down with the nut? If I fit everything together and tighten the nut it doesn't thread all the way on, maybe half the threads engage. I have a washer that came off the shaft but cannot remember if it was on top or bottom of the flywheel, any clues? The nut is the one that has a groove for the recoil engaging assembly.Thanks!