Now, on to Marine Band radios

DEM

Cadet
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Messages
23
Now that the Forum helped me buy Sonar/GPS I turn to getting a marine band radio for my soon to arrive boat. The last one I bought, 10 + years ago, was manual (no scan), not portable, not waterproof, used a tall mast (12 feet?). <br />I primarily use this on Lake Michigan out salmon fishing 5-20 miles but other uses as well.<br />What do I need to know to zero in on the best units in 2004.<br /><br />donmcalpine@chartermi.net
 

snapperbait

Vice Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2002
Messages
5,754
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

The units now days, your compairing apples to apples.... They all have just about the same features... The Icom, Standard/horizion, uniden, and Ray-marine in the $150 range are pretty much the industry standards for VHF radios.. Don't think you can really go wrong with any of them... Most in that price range are waterproof, can be removed easily, and provide scaning capability in some way... <br /><br /> For a few more bucks (like $200-300 overall cost) you can get a radio that can be connected to your GPS via a NEMA cable... By connecting the two, the radio can serve as a distress emergency message and position repeater.. Push the red button and the radio can tell the Coasty's where you are if you need them...<br /><br />What you need to know... VHF transmits works in a line of sight manner.. anything in your line of sight that can block the signal like mountains, land, and the curvature of the earth will block the signal, hence the need for the large antenna if you intend to transmit or recieve over any considerable distance like 5-20 miles... For the antenna, the higher you place the antenna, the better off you are... <br /><br />You say your going out 5-20 miles, my opinion, I'd rule out a hand held radio.. The range and power, which is usually limited to 5 watts max transmission power for most all handhelds versus 25 watts max transmit power for fixed mount radios, the handhelds limited power and low antenna height is just too little to cover that distance.. Again, just my opinion...<br /><br />Good luck and let us know what you choose.. :)
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

This is such an easy question to give a short answer to and such a great question to ramble on and on about .... and you know I'm gonna do it.
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<br /><br />OK, the short answer is to just make a list of the current models by ICOM and put them in order by price. Pick the one that suits your pocketbook. You absolutly can not go wrong by choosing one that way.<br /><br />Now what not to do, do not pick a VHF to match your other electronics. Do not buy based on price - because this is without a question the most important piece of safety gear on the boat, bar none (the PFD is your's, not the boat's).<br /><br />Now I'll make it even easier, get the 502A. Not the plain 502, but the very recently released revision to the 502 that has DSC output as well as input. If you don't know why you want that it's OK we'll get to that when you come back and ask how to connect it to your chartplotter and what DSC is all about.<br /><br />Now on to the antenna. Everyone has antennas by Shakespeare, and that is just fine. A few foklks have antennas by a company in Florida called Digital Antennas (brand name, has nothing at all to do with digital signals). Digital's antennas cost just a bit more than the top of the line models by Shakespeare and they are better made. They were well worth every dime of the price.<br /><br />Now about antenna heights, or lengths, and range, and gain, and all that stuff.<br /><br />No matter what anyone tells you, and there are a lot of myths out there about radio range, the maximum range of our VHF marine radions is a function of the curvature of the earth, not the radio's power. Because the earth is close to round the maximum range can be calculated, and calculated quite easily actually. <br /><br />Here is how you find the maximum range of 2-meter FM signals, which is what the marine band is part of. First you find the height of each antenna involved, both the sending and the receiving. Take each height, measured in feet, and find its square root. Mulitiply that number by 1.53. Do the same for both antennas and then add the sums. The total you come to is the maximum range that mix can communicate out there on the water. The range is far shorter than most folks will claim.<br /><br />Here is a link to a chart that I made up that shows you the range possible with various heights of antennas. Please note that the first column should have had 4 feet at its top label but somehow that got moved over. Here it is: Matrix of Antenna Ranges <br /><br />What you get to see quite quickly when you do the calculations is that antenna height is everything when you want to communicate. That's why far more 8' antennas are sold than 4' versions.<br /><br />So what about power? Well, for one thing its fixed by regulation issued by the FCC (which in turn is in accordance with international agreements for all marine radio worldwide) to 25 watts output on most channels and only 1 watt on some others. So they all put out the same power .... sort of.<br /><br />Cheap radios have one thing in common, that is that their power will fade out if you hold the mike keyed for an extended period. Sometimes that can be as little as a half a minute. I also know of one very well known brand that a friend who own's an electronics shop tested right out of the box (14 units tested for power output) and not one of them put out over 12 watts even though they were rated at 25. Those were NOT ICOM radios.<br /><br />OK, gain. Gain in the sense used here is a multiplyer and its a relative strength where each increase in gain of 3 doubles the effective power output. Gain is achieved by artificially flattening out the signal, which otherwise would be emitted in a perfect hemisphere from the radiating point. By compressing that ball of power in half the effective power is doubled - its like focusing the beam of a flash light, half the area covered means that the smaller circle of light is twice as bright. So a 3 dB gain antenna would make a 25 watt radio act like it was putting out 50 watts, and a 6 dB antenna (the most common designation) would double that again, so our 25 watt radio would act like it was putting out 100 watts.<br /><br />So, you gotta ask, if the range is a function of antenna height what do you care what the gain is? Well, here's something you may not have noticed about your VHF radios. You never hear two guys talking at the same time. Its not like the AM radio in your car late at night where you can hear a dozen stations from all over the universe talking at the same time. With the boat's radio you hear the one that has the strongest remaining signal when it gets to your antenna, and that strong one blocks out the others. That is the up side to gain, it makes your radio act like it has more power than it does and that puts you on top. There is a down side though. As that signal is compressed further and further it becomes more and more directional. So in a rocking boat a lot of the time high gain antennas will have you shooting some of your energy out into space and some of it into the water. Now, this isn't really a problem with 6 dB antennas, but when you get up there to the 9 dB and above sticks it becomes important.<br /><br />Oh, and you should know this too. When you buy that 4' or 8' or even 3' antenna what you don't see is that the actual antenna is not really that long. It is made up of a piece of wire inside the white fiberglass tube that is about 18" long. Its held up in the tip end, usually by a foam plug and some adhesive (unless you get one by Digital, in which case its completely supported and it won't be a length of wire, it will be a brass rod).<br /><br />So, how's that for a start?<br /><br />Oh, if for some reason you don't like ICOM, and there is no good reason on earth for that to be the case, the only other company who you want to consider at all is Standard Horizon.<br /><br />That help any?<br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

Don – we live in an age now where electronics, in general, is pretty much good stuff. However, I would keep what Snapper and Thom had to say about brands in mind.<br /><br />I went with an ICOM VHF because I think their product quality is above-average, but also for the radio’s features other than the VHF function. We will also use the radio as a 2-station intercom in the boat. And it’s a hailer, and it will auto generate the low visibility (foghorn) signals. You might want to see if a radio can offer other functions you would enjoy having. The DSC function is almost online with the USCG so you might as well go ahead and get a unit you can plug your GPS into. Most fix-mount VHF have the function now.<br /><br />ICOM knocked everyone off the table for NMEA marine radio awards in 2003. They received top awards for the best portable VHF (M88), the best fixed VHF (M602), and the best SSB (M802). No idea what criteria they used. Powerboat Reports always likes ICOM’s products, too. ICOM’s printed documentation is good, but my experience is their telephone and email support really sucks.<br /><br />Antennas are weird, clicky little critters. Whatever someone owns seems to get recommended, as if they knew any differences. Whatever a retailer sells is recommended…duhh. Fwiw, Powerboat Reports handed the Shakespeare 5225-XT the top honors as the best 8-ft (6-db gain) VHF antenna in 2000. Still today, in 2004, you cannot go wrong with it. It is the standard by which any other 8-ft antenna is compared. They are either “better than the 5225” or “not as good as the 5225.” Recently, the largest marine electronics distributor on the west coast also opined the Shakespeare 5225-XT was tops then said, ”but maybe the Morad 156-HD is a little better” …at 56-inches tall and $30 more?!?!?!? They sell both.<br /><br />Worth noting: The best antenna in the whole world (whatever that is…not everyone can agree) is going to be of limited value if you don’t get good, solid connections to the radio (it’s real important here); and a clean power source and good ground for the radio. This will probably do more for your tx/rc quality than the differences between brand x and y antennas will.<br /><br />Lastly, there are a ton of authorized dealers selling their VHF wares on Ebay. This is one area where you may save money by shopping Ebay compared to other online retailers.<br /><br />Good luck…and please let use know what you decide to buy (or steal :) )
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,726
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

Bruh, any radio and any antenna at least 3 feet tall will give you good reception. Put it as high as you can, and have fun. <br /><br />VHF range hasn't changed since a decade ago when you got your other one. VHF signals are all still line-of-sight.
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

I certainly agree, the Shakespeare 5225 is a fine antenna, in fact I had on on our boat right up until November when I took it off and replaced it with the Digital Antenna 529VW. If you read that comparison in Power Boat Reports closley you'll notice that the 5225 wasn't actually the winner. The 5399 was a better antenna in their testing and in fact it is the antenna I used for my main radio. I have two fixed mount VHF's (ICOM M-127 and M-59) and two antennas each with a devoted power supply. <br /><br />When I replace an antenna, something I do when they get the fuzzies, I usually cut the tips and bases off and use the shaft for gaff handels after I pour them sold with Epoxy. What that does is let's me see the guts of the antenna. There's not a thing wrong with the 5225, other than that I don't think a block of foam and some 5200 up in the tip to hold it all in place constitutes a high quality product. Grabe one and shake it, listen to the rattle. Its also been my experience with Shakespeare antennas that the shaft's tend to deterorate after about 3 years (you ever rub your hand down one that had the fuzzies?) and crack at 5. I have never had that happen with an antenna by Digital. By the way, take a look at the 2003 NMEA annual awards and see who made the best antenna. Here's the link to this year's award winnders. <br /><br /> And Here this sentence is a link to the web site for Digital Antennas. <br /><br />Thom
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

Thom – take a look at this link. Do you have an opinion about the 156-HD?<br /><br />Morad Antennas
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Now, on to Marine Band radios

Thanks for the link!<br /><br />Well, I don't have any experience at all with Morad antennas so there is nothing of substance that I can say about them. I can, however give you my impression just from their catalog.<br /><br />It seems to me that is is really a speciality use antenna. Its short, and that implies that it will be on a boat from which its height will not be a big contributing factor to how high it is above the water. Its a constant diameter aluminum tube, and quite a thick one (1.5") at that, so if nothing else I've have to think of it as some sort of ugly-stick. The only other thing that I noticed was that for this model they didn't say what size of coax they were using but in the only antenna where they did tell us what they were using (the 156-FG) which was the only one in the list that is in any real way comparable to either the Shakespeare 5225 or the Digital 529, was only using RG-58/U which I don't consider acceptable when compared to the much heavier RG-8/X that both Digital and Shakespeare uses.<br /><br />Anyway I don't know anything about them to comment any farther than that.<br /><br />Thom
 
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