Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

[DONPhantasmo]

I have a 1998 Wellcraft with a I/O 3.0 Volvo-Penta. last year, I left the plug in after going out fishing, and I came back, covered it and went to go out the following weekend, but the boat had a bunch of water in it. It was 1/3 of the way up the engine bay.
I went to take it to the marine stores around here, but NO ONE will work on a Volvo within a 50 mile radius of New Orleans.
I had to do the work myself. I trouble shot the issues. I knew I had to buy a new starter, so I did. I also read out the relay (good, no need to get a new one), and I also checked the circuit breakers, needed a new one, so I ordered it. Everything came in, and it was too cold to work on the boat.
Finally it got warm, and the rain stopped. So, I put the starter in, no prob. Wired it exactly as the book and the instructions said. I replaced the breaker, and everything was ready. Put some starting fluid in the Carb, and here we go...

The boat turned and turned, and nothing. Then, it started. As soon as I took my hand off the key (from start to run), the boat would die... It did that about 4 or 5 times. Every time I'd start it, it would actually run, until I return the key to the "run" position, and it would die.

I've read the wires, and they all seem good. I might not be reading everything correctly. I've even read this forum, and even read the troubleshooting manual, NOTHING.

Has this ever happened to anyone? Started fine, then when you returned the key to run, it would die?
If so, what did you do/

PLEASE HELP!!!

Thank you in advance!!

 

[mrflip2]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

yes when we test running a 454 we had the purple wire hooked up wrong it would get power in start but in run position wasn;t receiving 12 volts to run. Recheck your wires Don sent me the schematic but its in my book at work so maybe he is still on and can let you know.
Sometimes the relay the wire pops off when you put it inso check there also

 

[ifallsguy]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Had a similar problem. Turned out to be the kill switch. The safety on the kill looked to be in position, but it was out far enough the boat would not start. Reseated it and fired right up.

Easy to miss something like this.

 

[Don S]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

First, give that can of starting fluid to some one you dislike, and never use it again.

Did you ever check the distributor and the cap and see if there was a lot of moisture in it? That would sure kill the spark, and keep it from starting at all.

The first thing you need to look at is the back of the starter. See if the purple wire is actually hooked up to the small outside terminal on the starter solenoid.
If it is, hook a jumper wire from the Battery positive terminal to the terminal on the solenoid with the purple wire and see if it runs. If it starts and runs and you can't shut it off, pull the jumper wire off. If that happens, then you have either a bad ignition switch, a bad lanyard kill switch, or a bad connection between the helm and the engine.

 

[DONPhantasmo]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

It's too late and cold to try those things right now. But I'll get on it as soon as I can, and I'll hopefully fix the issue.

Thanx for all the input, guys. You guys ROCK!!!

 

[mkast]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Every time I'd start it, it would actually run, until I return the key to the "run" position, and it would die.

Check the ignition switch. Turn the switch to ON. Check for voltage at the coil.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Probably dateing myself and not up with the times. GM ignitions with points used an external ballast resistor ( wire wound in a white ceramic block) that cut the voltage to the coil to around 8 volts. When starting, 12 volts went to the coil, run position went thru a different wire thru the resistor. If you have 2 wires running to the positive lug on the coil, you have a ballast resistor somewhere. I always had a spare in the glove compartment. FRED

 

[Don S]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

His engine has electronic ignition, EST distributor, no points, and no ballast resistor.

 

[havasuboatman]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Best advice I've seen on these boards for some time!!!

Without a doubt.

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Thanks for the heads up DON. Have not kept up with the times, to late to catch up. I always try to put a disclaimer in my post for that reason
Can you explain the starter schematic you posted? I looked at it and figured the yellow wire energized the solenoid and provided power to the purple. Dis engage the starter and you would also loose power to the purple. How do you keep power to the purple in the run position? How do you turn the engine off? regards FRED

 

[havasuboatman]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

The purple wire shown in that schematic isonly powered up when the starter is being engaged. It is used on motors that have externally resisted coils. That wire goes directly to the coil, bypassing the external resistor, giving the coil 12 volts while starting. after the engine starts the coil is then powered thru the resistor at a lessor voltage.
Don is giving you a way to test for your Key switch and/or your kill switch.
If it runs, but wont shut off, the purple wire that runs from the key switch, thru the kill switch and then back to the coil has an open connection. either the wire is disconnected or broken. Or your key switch is bad, OR your kill switch is bad or unplugged.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

if that 3.0 Runs but WONT shut down the issue is definatly not an open purple wire,thats how you Shut it off.
methinks there was a typo here
havasu knows but i think miss typed,happens.
sounds just like a case of the kill lanyard unplugged.
the purple wire from the R terminal supplys 12V to the ign when cranking only,when the key is released to start the ign switch purple wire takes over.
that purple goes from the ign switch through the emergency stop swith to the ign coil and some other places, open that circuit and the engine dies.
so close the purple wire circuit(R terminal on the starter) while cranking and bingo engine fires,release the key from start to run and now the feed is from the keyswitch purple to the ign circuits,if anything is open between the keyswitch batt feed and the ign purple at the engine it will immediatly die.

 

[DONPhantasmo]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

OK. It was very cold, and rainy, but I did some work on it.. Here's an update.

I went ahead and just got a new key switch. It was only 15 bucks, and it wasn't worth me getting all flustered about troubleshooting something that cheap. And I didn't know if the "dead man's swtich" was working or not. I just bypassed the purple/red wire that goes to it, just for troubleshooting perposses.

OK, so the purple wire that goes to the starter still reads 0 volts with or without the key on. As havasuboatman said, it shouldn't get voltage unless it's on "start" mode. If that's the case, it's doing as it is supposed to do.

At this moment, it's hard as hell to tell what's wrong. At least I know it's not the key, or the kill switch.

Still need advice. The damn manual does not help at all...

 

[Don S]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

OK, so the purple wire that goes to the starter still reads 0 volts with or without the key on. As havasuboatman said, it shouldn't get voltage unless it's on "start" mode.

Wrong. That wire (In this application) will be hot at all times when the key is in the run position.
The only reason for that wire on the starter is to make sure you have full battery voltage to the coil during starting and that there is no excess voltage drop due to long runs or slighltly corroded terminals. Mercruisers with the EST do not have that wire, and newer Volvos don't either, but your model does.
You need to do the test I mentioned earlier or you will be replacing $15 parts till your broke and may not find it.

 

[Don S]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Couple more questions, what is the FULL model number (all those letters) of your engine, or even the SN will help me determine what year engine you have. Year of boat has nothing to do with year of engine in most cases. the engine could be older or newer.

What manual do you have? Seloc or Clymers?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

as the electrical system on the engines ign side sees the starter as a dead short,when the starter is engaged, most non EFI, ign systems use a bypass of some type to maintain ign system voltage when cranking.
this goes back about 90 years.
its real simple, key on the ign system voltage AND operating current goes through the ign switch.
however at CRANKING sometimes ign switch voltage may drop due to the starter current requirement to below a threshold that can sustain cranking AND ignition system requirements.
thats the sole and only function of the R terminal on the starter solinoid.
it taps the current and voltage avalible AT the starter to supply ign system voltage and current for starting only.
remember, Voltage is strictly a measure of electromotive force but current gets the work done in a load device.
current always flows,voltage NEVER flows.

key on engine off ALL purple wires will have 12V on the disscussed 3.0.
unless the red batt feed to the ign switch is bad. or the purple wire has some opens.
the purple wire in the pic just doesnt go far enough to describe it.

shorts are easy to find,look for spots where the smoke got out, opens can be a pain.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Because I see you are new to this site, you probably don't know Don s's reputation. I would recommend that you do exactly as he has outlined in his earlier post. He is a professional but is also very to the point. He will always give you good advice if you listen to the steps he lays out.

 

[DONPhantasmo]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Couple more questions, what is the FULL model number (all those letters) of your engine, or even the SN will help me determine what year engine you have. Year of boat has nothing to do with year of engine in most cases. the engine could be older or newer.

What manual do you have? Seloc or Clymers?

Ok, here's the engine model and all..

1998 Volvo Penta 3.0 GS PBYCCE
4110160682
3868748

I'll try your test tomorrow, it should be a little better weather outside.

I'm still trying to figure out why the purple should be getting juice. I re-read the diagram (SELOC 10-84) and it shows it coming directly from the alternator. Does that mean it should only get 12V only when the engine is running? If so, when the engine is static, shouldn't it read 0V?

 

[DONPhantasmo]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Because I see you are new to this site, you probably don't know Don s's reputation. I would recommend that you do exactly as he has outlined in his earlier post. He is a professional but is also very to the point. He will always give you good advice if you listen to the steps he lays out.

I understand... I just have only one pair of hands, in the dark. I'll get a friend to help tomorrow. I have been on this site for a while now. I just had nothing to add or post. Because of me being here for a while, I've seen him comment on damn near every post. I can tell he's VERY knowledgeable, and most likely a mechanic in the industry or something in that nature...

 

[pine island fred]

Re: Has this ever happend to you (starting questions)

Makes perfect sense to me. Now a question. Why have to different power sources to the coil, one in the start mode, one in the run mode if there is no voltage reduction to the coil in run mode?. Only thing I can think of is the ignition/ start switch load sheds other circuits when starting to prevent potential low voltage damage that might occure to other items when the starter is engaged.
RODBOLT, we can discuss this further in JULY. Planning a trip to ROANOKE, then N.J. ( dont really want to go there,) back down thru KITTY HAWK. Maby we can do the BLUE CRAB by boat again! Did you get to school in ATL? Was cold up there, hope you brought your flannels. regards FRED