Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

[QC]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I am sure that Don S has kept this thing open despite his personal desire to choke it by the neck until dead . . .

Mr.Pointless,

While there are inaccuracies in every thread and there are exceptions to every rule and there are mods that can work wonderfully in both cars and boats, please recognize these guys are trying to lead you to water and it would be good if you thought more about drinking. I LOVE turbocharged engines, love them. Most of the "feel" people attribute to diesels is due to turbocharging not the cycle. Deep lug capability is wonderful for an automotive application even with turbo lag. They are OK for marine applications too, but the issue is cooling the hot side, and no, I would not suggest a radiator for that either.

I just searched this thread and I don't see the word reversion . . . You need to search this entire section for that word. Your high performance plans are counter to the limitations that this word brings to marine applications. Even with that there are solutions, but you need to understand before you continue.

Also, the members and owners of this site are particularly cognizant of mods that may be unsafe or illegal. Not necessarily with some other performance marine sites, but definitely here. Most here are concerned about rubber stamping plans that appear unsafe, and your carb suggestion a few posts back is probably illegal and a safety issue.

Contradictorily, we are not all sticks in the mud. Even Bondo has made mods that others have scoffed at. And I often post that those who think a 70 MPH bass boat is insane, and that they should be banned, should shut their pie hole. The water is one of the last places that this type of freedom exists and I personally want it to remain that way. Shhhhh, don't tell those bass boat naysayers that anybody with a big checkbook can buy a 120 MPH boat and have it on the water today with zero experience, they just don't need to hear that

Soooooooo, if you expect members here to agree to ideas that they either know are DOA, or they know will be expensive and yield nothing, then you are going to be frustrated. If it were me, and I wanted to go fast and I had a budget and I also wanted this thing to actually work, I would keep the Alpha, sell the 305, sell the turbo, buy a 350, mildly build it with a cam that will not suck water back into the cylinders, and I'd go with thru transom exhaust because I like the sound of an uncorked V8. I would use all marine components and I would still have the fastest 17 footer on the river. I would spend some money on propellers and trim tabs to control this thing, and every day that I went down to the launch ramp she would start, rumble and rock and roll . . . And then, I would spend a little time looking at other rides, drool over my next one, find somebody to buy my current ride and then move on to what I will have learned is the boat I really want for the boating I like to do . . .

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

why not? It's the same reason that a lot of Ford guys put a 347 in their mustangs instead of simply dropping in a 351W. It's for the fun of the build -- the fun of having something different than most other people.

There are many reasons why mustang enthusiast prefer a 302 over a 351. One reason is the 5.0 spools up faster than a 5.8. For example, if you had two F150?s one with a 5.0 and the other with a 5.8 and while in neutral you revved up the engine you will notice the 5.0 will hit 4000 rpm quicker than the 5.8. Another reason is junkyard performance parts are available for 5.0?s and not 5.8?s. I?m referring to things like an intake off a 1999 explorer (same as the cobras intake) or gt40 heads off another ford 5.0 (some mustangs didn?t have gt40 heads). The 5.8 doesn?t have any options like those so most guys on a budget don?t bother swapping one in.
If you have a truck you will definitely see the benefit of a 5.8. If you had the same trucks I posted above with a trailer attached to them and raced them, the 5.8 would win. Even though the 5.0 could rev up faster than the 5.8 could that advantage is lost as soon as you load them up. Even a 347 would lose. The reason is torque. 347?s aren?t the best engines either. You usually have to modify the pistons skirt to be able to run them properly. They are not known to live a long life either. A stock 302 will run for ever unlike its stroked counterpart.
Boats are like trucks. They need their power at a lower rpm range. Trucks that are used in towing, rock crawling or mudding are usually set up to shift gears around 4500 rpm. At that rpm they pretty much used up all their power. On a car you would want to cam it to rev as much as you safely could. Keep in mind that if you put that high revving car engine in a truck it would be a dog. The weight of the truck will be the reason.

I know you think the torque and hp is similar in 305 to a 350 but, the butt dyno will disagree. If you have ever swapped a 305 in favor of a 350 you will understand. It will feel WAY more powerful, not just a little bit the way you think. Trust me, the 45 cubes make a difference.

You need to leave the automotive tech alone. Boats are different and the principals that work on the street do not work in the water.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

QC, that is just what I was thinkin'....

Seriously, very informative (and tame!) response.

Capn', QC took the time and has the best of our responses and their intentions summed up well. Good luck on your projects (but I would turbo a 350, because like you say the rebuild cost is nearly identical so why not just switch the 0 and 5 around and let 'er rip)

 

[Maclin]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Bronc, I like your post. The buttdyno does not lie, torque is what you feel, and the sooner you feel it the better.

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I will admit, I do indeed enjoy the debates. Controversy breeds innovation. Like I said before, if people didn't figure out different ways to approach common problems, those problems would never get solved.

You say that feasibility is the problem...can I ask what you mean? If you are referring to the difficulty of the build, then in all honesty, the build is no more difficult than a comparable 350 build. After all, they are essentially the same engine block with a different bore. But it sounds more like you don't think it's easily used in a boat application. Why do you say this? The motor that I'm looking at originally came from a boat. While a turbo adds some complexity to any setup, I see no reason that this should be much more different than using a merc 350 in the same application.

No ,not difficulty of the build, that's pretty much a no-brainer. See QC's post above, he covers things pretty well. Reversion and heat control. Listen, if you had an unlimited budget or were a master fabricator and engineer, you might be able to pull it off and have something no-one else has. But it doesn't seem like any of those things are the case.

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I agree, QC has made some good points, as has Bronc Rider. There is definitely a lot to consider. I now have (in my eyes) all the opinions that matter. That said, I'm not saying I'm changing my mind, but seeing as I have several months to consider my options, I'll be using that time to weigh the benefits and disadvantages of all of them.

 

[QC]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Thanks for taking my post as intended. Good on ya!!

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Another reason is junkyard performance parts are available for 5.0?s and not 5.8?s. I?m referring to things like an intake off a 1999 explorer (same as the cobras intake) or gt40 heads off another ford 5.0 (some mustangs didn?t have gt40 heads). The 5.8 doesn?t have any options like those so most guys on a budget don?t bother swapping one in.

Not to detract from some of the good points you make, but:

http://www.nloc.net/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/13184/cat/3

They do exist. My last truck had the full GT40 package on the 351w.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Not to detract from some of the good points you make, but:

http://www.nloc.net/classifieds/showproduct.php/product/13184/cat/3

They do exist. My last truck had the full GT40 package on the 351w.

Yes some 351's have gt40 heads but, they are to a 5.0. 351's use 302's heads from the factory and they are considered very restictive. Thats the reason mustang enthusiasts like the 5.0, it has good flowing heads available at the junk yard. The 351 might use them but, they suck on a 351 and there is no upgrade heads to be had on the cheap. And you say gt40 package? What do you mean? The good intake from ford will not bolt up to a 351.
I was just pointing out why some people might prefer a smaller v8.

EDIT: I clicked on your link and saw that it was to a lightnings heads. Your gt40 heads were the non restrictive type. And the intake is also unique to it.

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Gen 1 Ford Lightnings all had the full GT40 package on the 351W. They had GT40 heads, GT40 Upper and Lower intake, and short tube headers.

And actually, there are quite a few aftermarket parts people swapped out on them too. The link I posted was to a set of 351W GT40 heads.

Actually, I think the ~94 Cobras all had 351W with GT40 as well.

The engine was based on an existing block, but Ford engineers fitted it with high flow rate "GT40" heads and used hypereutectic pistons to increase response, output and durability.

 

[Bronc Rider]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Gen 1 Ford Lightnings all had the full GT40 package on the 351W. They had GT40 heads, GT40 Upper and Lower intake, and short tube headers.

And actually, there are quite a few aftermarket parts people swapped out on them too. The link I posted was to a set of 351W GT40 heads.

Actually, I think the ~94 Cobras all had 351W with GT40 as well.

I was editing while you were typing. See my previous post. And yes there is many aftermarket parts. I was referring to junkyard upgrades.

 

[Subliminal]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Roger that...just trying to clarify!

 

[Maclin]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I just remember a dual quad 351 1969 way modified Mustang going around me and my stock 4speed 318 Barracuda on the main drag where I grew up, grabbing second and pulling the wheels off while he did it...that was 4 decades back though.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

well...

with the cooler temps I recently hit 77 in my 17 foot 383 alpha drive...

I am taking a break out in the garage tonight, just finished gasket matching the new intake to the heads (freshly ported!), finished setting up / rebuilding the "new" carb, and after cleaning up the intake am going to shoot a couple coats of fulthane "fireball red metallic" with extra clear in it to match the rest of the engine... that along with some of the other modifications this time am hopiong to get well into the 80's...

go with the moderate 350 build... you'll probably be able to get well into the 60's and it'll be both fun and reasonably safe to drive... It'll cost a lot less and be FAR less headache than the other options. I would go a well done 4.3 before a 305 any day... and a 350 above both. just my two cents...

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I just watched the video in your signature, tim. That's a pretty nice little ride you got there. I had a 16 foot checkmate with a 150 outboard on it. It was pretty fast, but would start chinewalking bad around 60.

 

[wca_tim]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

I just watched the video in your signature, tim. That's a pretty nice little ride you got there. I had a 16 foot checkmate with a 150 outboard on it. It was pretty fast, but would start chinewalking bad around 60.

Thanks! No full blown chine walk except a couple times, but it was getting pretty loose as it got into the 70's and I think was hitting a wall from gearcase b low out. The alpha ss drive I put on it recently made a WORLD of difference in handling and higher speed stability. rides at WOT now like it did at 55 before. The little outboard jobs absolutely fly, but can be a handful!

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Thanks! No full blown chine walk except a couple times, but it was getting pretty loose as it got into the 70's and I think was hitting a wall from gearcase b low out. The alpha ss drive I put on it recently made a WORLD of difference in handling and higher speed stability. rides at WOT now like it did at 55 before. The little outboard jobs absolutely fly, but can be a handful!

No kidding. If I kept it trimmed down it was fine, but would only hit low to mid 50's. Start trimming her up and you could feel her picking up speed fast, but she also got loose as hell. And lord help you if you caught a cross wake. You were headed to the moon sideways, it felt like. LOL

 

[CaptainPointless]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

So I decided I'm going to pass on the 305. While it would be fun to build a boosted 340, the disadvantages outweigh the benefits. No "I told you so's." More than likely, I'll still build a boosted 383 or 350, but for almost the same price, the 350 parts are more readily available. No lectures (yet!) about the idea for the turbo setup. I'll approach that issue when it arises during the build.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,.... We told you so....

 

[skargo]

Re: Cryo-Treated Alpha 1 + 383 Stroker: Thoughts, Q&A?

Ayuh,.... We told you so....

hehehehe...

I'm stacking 2 blowers on top of my 350 in my boat!