Force 85 fails to start sometimes

[ChicagoDave]

New to it all - boat ownership, mechanics, this forum, etc. - but not afraid to get my hands dirty. 88 Bayliner Capri, Force 85hp. When the motor starts, it runs great. Problem is, frequently it just won't start. Prior owner claimed it was a poor connection to the battery, and indeed there was some corrosion on the terminal and wires, but I cleaned both until they were pretty shiny, and it's no better. When the problem occurs, I was hearing a relatively quiet clicking in the engine. I removed the motor cover to see what was happening, and the starter is spinning (source of clicking), but the gear on top is spinning free, and it appears to be doing nothing. This gear is very close to, but not actually meshed with a much larger gear (12 inches diameter?). If I had to guess, I would think the starter gear should be lifting as well as spinning when the key is turned, to engage the larger gear and crank it, and then dropping back down when the key is released. Is this simply a matter of insufficient electric power?

Any help would be much appreciated - thanks!

 

[mla2ofus]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Make sure all connections are clean and tight from the batt to the solenoid and to the starter. If batt tests at least 12v w/ a good voltmeter, then try a little oil on the starter shaft where the bendix, the part that moves up and down, is located. If that doesn't help then I'd say you have a problem w/ the bendix and or starter shaft.
HTH,
Mike

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Thanks for the advice, Mike - I'll give all that a try when I'm up at the lake next weekend.

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Sadly, no luck. I took a wire brush to the terminal & wires and tightened up the wing nut, then tightened the nut at the bottom of the starter (it was slightly loose, but not very). There was one other set of connections in the path, between the battery and starter at some sort of electrical junction, but those were tight. Unfortunately, same symptom -the gear on top of the starter spins, but does not lift. One thing I noticed - when I turn the key, the starter gear spins counterclockwise. However, if I manually spin that gear clockwise, it lifts up and engages the flywheel. I oiled pretty much everything there that moves, though it spun pretty free in my hands before hand. However, I was wondering if possibly somewhere the polarity is wrong, and the starter gear is supposed to spin clockwise so that it rises up on the threads. Though I don't think that makes a lot of sense since it does start sometimes, it was just a thought.

I forgot to get a 12v tester, so that is the one thing I have not tried. If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[foodfisher]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

If you cleaned and lubricated the shaft, (WD40?) and the gear still won't engage the flywheel you don't have enough poop at the starter. Clean connections between the battery and the starter (all of them). A faulty solenoid might be happening or a dying starter. Try a direct jump between the batt. and the starter. Careful! the flywheel has no conscience.

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Thanks for your reply. Yes, WD40. I was a little too busy last weekened, so I will leave more time this weekend to put this problem through all the paces. Plus I'll pick up a battery tester, which I imagine will save time identifying the location of the problem(s).

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

OK, I tested the voltage everywhere, and it seemed good, up to and through the starter. So I am guessing a have a starter problem. Being the curious fool that I am, I removed the starter, and opened it. The first thing that struck me was water, or some other fluid that had no odor and was not greasy, that poured out of it all over me. Is this normal? Could it be the source or part of the cause of the problem? Do I need to replace this fluid when I reassemble it?

Of course I should have asked this before I started, but any tips on working on these, now that I'm in the midst of it?

Thanks

 

[john from md]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Dave,

No, there shouldn't be any fluid in the starter. The way the starter and Bendix gear, two different units, works is this. When the starter is spun at a high enough speed, the Bendix assy rides up the helix gear cut on the starter shaft. This is due to the inertia of the Bendix against the spin of the starter.

When the Bendix engages the flywheel, torque from the starter turns the wheel until the flywheel turns slightly faster than the Bendix. At that point, a spring in the Bendix, forces the gear down away from the Flywheel.

Bendix Gears do go bad. You can buy a Bendix separately from the starter if your starter is good.

From what I am reading, it appears you have eliminated the electrical possibilities and so I believe that your Bendix probably is bad. This assumes that your starter is turning fast whey the key is turned.

John

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Well, got the starter back in place. I read at ARCOs site (who makes the starter) that the #1 cause of starter failure is water getting inside. So, I cleaned it out pretty thoroughly (was lots of dirt, grit, and metal shavings in there which were hard to get off the inside of the main casing, which is apparently magnetic). Had to put a little grease on the brushes to keep them from binding against the armature, but finally got it clean, reassembled, and remounted. However, the problem was just as bad, if not worse - the loss of was to the point where the gear on top spun really slow and eventually came to a stop. So I got the voltage tester back out. At one point, I hooked the tester wires to the positive & ground on the solenoid (I think - the electrical junction just before the starter -maybe the neutral safety switch?), saw I had good power, then pressed the "load" button on the tester, and damn if the the starter gear didn't jump right up an nearly start the motor. Scared the crap out of me, because I was not expecting that. So now I'm looking into solenoids, what they do, how I can diagnose them, etc. At one point before I removed the starter, when I was testing the electrical paths I accidentally shorted the solenoid's (or safety switch's) positive to it's ground directly for a second, and got a big spark. I guess I may have damaged it then, don't know. As always, all help is appreciated.

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

John, looks like our last 2 posts crossed paths. Yeah, the bendix looks a bit worn, but it still rides pretty smoothly up the shaft, and if you read my last post you can see that I nearly accidentally started the motor a few minutes ago. I now think that either the starter was still OK despite the fluid inside, or else I may (or may not) have fixed the problem with the starter, but caused a new one in the process.

This is fun. I hope some day I get to actually drive the boat in the water again.

 

[john from md]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

A test to see if the solinoid is bad is to run a jumper from the red line into the solinoid to the positive post on the starter. It will spark and the starter will spin if the solinoid is the problem.

The solinoid is a electro magnetic switch. It has two large connections and two smaller ones. The starter switch makes the connection across the smaller contacts which connect to the coil. When the coil is energized, it pulls down a big copper bar accross the two large terminals allowing high current to go to the starter. This bar and its two contacts get pitted over time and don't allow enough current to flow.

If you solinoid is bad, you can buy a new one from Iboats for about $33.

John

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Thanks for the lesson, John. I did not have a jumper, but I used my tester to jump from the red line on the solenoid to the positive on the starter, and then pressed the load button on the tester, which I believe causes it to act similar to a direct line. Sure enough, the starter spun, and in fact, it spun harder than when I turn the key - hard enough to cause the pinion to jump up and mesh with the flywheel, but not hard enough to turn the flywheel. Does this mean the solenoid is bad? Or should I redo this test with an actual jumper cable?

 

[john from md]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

The load tester does the same thing as a jumper but with a 50 or 100 amp load in the middle. If it spun up using the load tester, then the solinoid is the cuprit. They are about $33 on iboats.

Good job!

John

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

OK, ordered the solenoid today - hopefully that is the end of it! Thanks again for the help, and I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Got the solenoid repalced. The first time I tried to start it, I still had the same symptom (starter spins too slow). But as soon as I got the multimeter out and asked my wife to turn the key so I could test voltages behind the solenoid, it started cranking, and now it cranks every time - WOOT! Guess the new solenoid needed to warm up or something? In any case, it appears my starting system is now working fine.

The bad news is now it won't catch. BOO! Checked the fuel bulb, and it was pretty soft since I had not started it in a few weeks, so I pumped it up, but I don't know how far to go. I pumped until I heard some gas dripping somewhere in the engine, but it still won't catch. Did I flood it? Did I not prime enough? Is there any way to tell? What do I do in either case? Or is it something else?

 

[ChicagoDave]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Forgot to mention above that I did make sure it was in neutral, and I also checked that the plug was on the saftey / kill switch. I actually removed the pulg and held the kill switch down manually just to make sure.

 

[dan4081]

Re: Force 85 fails to start sometimes

Did you choke it?

Pushing 'down' on the key as you turn it activates the choke.

Another tip---my 85hp force, and a couple others on here start easier when tilted up. (fuel related I'm guessing)
Never figured out why, but the first start of the day always starts easier with the engine up, then I lower it into the water.
Starts right up everytime up or down the rest of the day after that first start.