1991 V135 - Project Engine

daveswaves

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Sounds kinda personal... LOL.. I don't go all the way to polishing them. I just use a die grinder to smooth out the sharp edges left from the casting. I just taking the extra time to finish what was started at the factory.

Removing sharp edges significantly reduces heat and stress concentrations. Polishing them makes the slippery and is effective in an oil bath motor but in a two stroke it's not and issue. I'm of the theory that polishing actually reduces crankase fuel atomization in two strokes but then maybe it's just because I'm to lazy to do it.:)
Gotta keep you honest here, polishing never hurts, even in a 2 stroke. The carb and the intake path should do the atomizing. not the rod. The rod is never moving fast enough in relation to the air fuel charge to atomize anything. The air fuel charge is moving just slightly slower than the rod. A rough surface can cause the fuel to drop out of suspension and not be available for the intake charge. If you are going to modify rods in any way they should be shot peaned afterward to relieve stress. Just my 2 cents, spend it any way you want:)
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Gotta keep you honest here, polishing never hurts, even in a 2 stroke. The carb and the intake path should do the atomizing. not the rod. The rod is never moving fast enough in relation to the air fuel charge to atomize anything. The air fuel charge is moving just slightly slower than the rod. A rough surface can cause the fuel to drop out of suspension and not be available for the intake charge. If you are going to modify rods in any way they should be shot peaned afterward to relieve stress. Just my 2 cents, spend it any way you want:)

No argument, you've seen what you've seen and I've seen what I've seen. on a 7,000 + engine, I'd polish. On a lugger like this I won't. Thanks for the input though. When I get a 3.0 to play with I'll definitely be drilling you.
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

9/14 - Took some pic of the rod work that I do. It's just basic nothing fancy but it lets the shop know what you want done at a minimum.

It's a little hard to see but the top rod is factory and the bottom is touched up.

new007.jpg


I was also asked to remember to chamfer the ports on the block. I don't go for a full chamfer I usually just take the sharp edge off. This just keeps you from hangin a ring there are no performance benefits unless you consider a broken piston ring a performance issue.. :)

new015.jpg


I final honed the cylinders tonight - Just had to put those pretty cross hashes in.

new014.jpg


And finally, the new and the old.. These are the new GLM pistons compared to the old stock pistons - Can you read the size of that Tomato on the caliper.. Just picked them.. Oh and no comments about the coffe cup, my girlfriend hand painted it from a picture of me fishing a bass hole up at Lake Sonoma. Her mind kind of wanders sometimes.

Oh yeah this was about pistons wasn't it. Well there they are ---

new009.jpg
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

If I can....
The starboard cylinders are 1,3,5 the port are 2,4,6. You have them backwards.
Unless there was a problem with the crank you don't need to balance the crank or do anything to it.
.005 in the cylinders is right on the edge. You will eventually have a sloppy idle. I don't understand why you went for doing the heads and leaving the cylinders loose?
I wouldn't recommend completely stripping down the block to bare aluminum, The factory paint adheres much better than any spray you can put on. You also open the metal to contaminants. Just sand down any rough, blistered areas and repaint.
Unless you are running over 7,000 rpm there is no need to replace the reeds. The factory reeds are usually much better for a fishing motor and will last the lifetime of the engine. Just wasted money.
To chamfer the ports just use a brush hone. It will do the trick in a few minutes and get all the edges. I would never use a die grinder. If I didn't use a brush hone I would use a hand file.
Never chase the threads in a rod. Just clean the threads with carb cleaner, if there is some leftover Loctite just use a pick. Put them back together with red Loctite. Always use new rod bolts if replacing the stock FE bolts. You can reuse SRP bolts.
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Thanks for the comments Jeff. Cylinders were'nt loose. Worst one was .0016 over. The taper and out of round on this engine maxes out at .006 and I'm at .0005 for both on all cylinders.

The replacement reeds were cheaper than factory from Merc.

The repainted parts were stripped, etched and repainted with Acrylic Lacquer. Merc doesn't etch and the Merc paint was peeling from the overheat.

Heads were taken down .002 just to clean them up.

Always chase threads to remove loctite and any other debri. You'll never get red loctite out of threads unless you do. Blue loctite will come right out with carb cleaner and a pick.

On rod bolts .. Yes replace and I will be along with all other bolts.

A wire brush for chamfering? Not sure of the good that would do, never tried it. I use a right angle die grinder or a 120 deg die grinder and a pressure regulator to slow it down for complete control. I also use a stone and not a burr. As you can see by the way they turned out this works fine.
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Sorry I read your cyl. specs wrong my apologies.

Forgetting which reeds were cheaper why did they need replacing?

No NEVER chase the threads in a rod. Clean them then use them. You don't need to replace any other bolts unless they are stripped or rusty, but the rod bolts yes.

I didn't say a wire brush I said a brush hone. It puts the proper crosshatch on the cylinder walls and does the ports at the same time. You can not reach all areas properly with a die grinder no matter how careful you are. There is a proper way to do things. It is your motor so do it how you want. But your are giving advise here on the site and others will follow your lead.

You'll understand about the paint in a year or so.
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

A lot of folks don't chase threads. I've done it for years without a problem. You just need to know what tap to use on the rods. On these it's 27 TPI... NPT.

As far as replacing bolts. I always do it and definitely do it on an overheated engine. All bolts stretch, that's why Merc tells you to re torque the head bolts after the first hour of breakin.
If a bolt's already stretched and the engine overheated then your just pushing your luck if you re-use them. There are some that won't matter but what the heck, as long as the credit card is out, might as well order them.

Nice thing about this engine is that you don't have to buy the bolts from Merc. You can get them through Fastenal provided they are the same grade or better.

Humm, I wonder how much I could spend on hardened high carbide stainless.

Reeds - They've opened and closed roughly 2,848,860,000 times over the past 19 years. You can have them if you want, they look perfect. PM me your mailing address and I'll put them in the mail.

Honing, I have a brush hone and could have used it for the final honing. Didn't even remember I had it until you mentioned it. I used a set of hardened diamond fixed hones because I had to be really careful just to take off the aluminum that was micro welded to the walls without opening up the cylinders any more than absolutely necessary.

Keeping at a stock bore was the goal for me. I didn't realize until later that my options for pistons would be severley limited by staying std. There were moments when I seriously thought of packing it up and sending it off to LA Sleeve for boring.

You mentioned the crank and balancing. You are correct, these cranks are second order balance from the factory. Don't you think it's a bit odd that the runout tolerance is .006 ... Anyway, I should have been more specific because what I am actually having done is the flywheel balanced to the crank, that's all. Just a little tweak to be sure all is in order.

Keep the comments comming... by the way what makes the starboard running light red, is the the bulb or the lens... You're, right by the way, I was flipping it around here.. I have it right when I'm working on it though. I'd better or those boost ports won't do much boosting.
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Your starboard running light is green. Please don't boat at night.
After 35 years as an outboard tech believe me when I say don't chase the threads. No matter how sharp or dull, new or old the tap will change the rod threads. If you can show me in any OEM service manual I will shut up and go away.
Balancing the flywheel to the crank is unnecessary and isn't done on anything other than high RPM race boats, same with the rods.
Changing the reeds is OK but don't expect any gains and be prepared to replace them every few years at least. The only advantage to the plastic reeds is IF they fail and lose a chunk plastic reeds won't damage the engine where steel may.
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Your starboard running light is green. Please don't boat at night.
After 35 years as an outboard tech believe me when I say don't chase the threads. No matter how sharp or dull, new or old the tap will change the rod threads. If you can show me in any OEM service manual I will shut up and go away.
Balancing the flywheel to the crank is unnecessary and isn't done on anything other than high RPM race boats, same with the rods.
Changing the reeds is OK but don't expect any gains and be prepared to replace them every few years at least. The only advantage to the plastic reeds is IF they fail and lose a chunk plastic reeds won't damage the engine where steel may.

Re running lights, you win.. You'd be suprised how many times I've been told it was the lens.

As for the rest of it. I think I'll just keep doin what I'm doin.. Thanks again for all the input.
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve the problem is you started this as a how to for the other visitors to this forum. If it was just how "I built my engine" fine, but it isn't. You asked for help from any pro's and yet you blow off their advice and concerns, and not just me.

Rebuild your engine any way you want, but it is obvious you have little experience rebuilding outboards, and from some of your other posts it is clear you are a hobbyist. That's fine, please post away. But don't post a how to with erroneous information.
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve the problem is you started this as a how to for the other visitors to this forum. If it was just how "I built my engine" fine, but it isn't. You asked for help from any pro's and yet you blow off their advice and concerns, and not just me.

Rebuild your engine any way you want, but it is obvious you have little experience rebuilding outboards, and from some of your other posts it is clear you are a hobbyist. That's fine, please post away. But don't post a how to with erroneous information.

O.K. you get your way... You are a pro and I am crap... You win.

This thread ends here. If anyone was enjoying it... well sorry....

I will request that a moderator delete this thread in its entirity.
 

Unbalanced

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve,
Don't let one oppinionated jack***** spoil your fine re-build thread.

Please continue.
 

imported_Jimbo

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Well people will always have different opinions on whats right and wrong in most fields... Apparently we have two skilled mechanics with a few differences in opinion, which I find fine, and helps the rest of us to build our own opinions.

That beeing said, Jeff please keep commenting, but show respect for others expertice andexperience. I?m sure you have been wrong in the past at least a few times over those 35 years as a mechanic.

Steve please keep the post going, I find it to be one of the most interesting and educating threads in along time. And I?d really like to read about the results later on!

Finally, this is an open forum where I like to read skilled people discussing, but the level should be kept objective and above the surface...

Regards Jimbo
 

SBTOM

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

well... one of the things that is great about this site is that you always seem to get a bunch of different opinions! Wasn't there some sort of expression about a cat? Anyway, I did what you recomended and turned my voltage regulator into a coffee warmer... it works great! ;) Nothing sets off the smell of two-stroke like a nice warm cup of coffee... anyway, keep em' coming
 

Zrt1200

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve, Every body has a opinion. Just some of us will keep it to our self's. When you started this thread it inspired me to get going on rebuilding my 80HP. I would hate to see you end this thread now after all so many of us are following it. Personally I would like to see this thread to the end, That is right after you hook it up to the dyno!! Al
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Thanks everyone for the encouragement. I don't mind criticism often if makes me stronger. I don't like nagging, I have an ex-wife for that. If I tell you thank you for you comments it means that I will research your suggestions and consider them. If I find your comments to be usefull you will see them in practice in the thread and I will give credit where credit is due.

Again, thanks for the support.
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

O.K. you get your way... You are a pro and I am crap... You win.

This thread ends here. If anyone was enjoying it... well sorry....

I will request that a moderator delete this thread in its entirity.

I didn't say you are crap. Don't turn this into something it isn't. You asked for help and advise. I only did what you asked for.
There are reasons certain things are done certain ways. I could have kept my mouth shut and let you go on with your thread here which would be fine. But you are doing this as how it should be done. In some areas you are giving bad advise.
Yes I have made mistakes in my 35 years. But I acknowledge them and move on and learn.
Some of the things he has done and documented are very good and helpful.
I don't want to see Steve end this thread, I would like to see correct information given. If I know something is wrong would you all rather I not say anything? Not use my 35 years of experience? Or would you rather see information that could possibly cause another to end up with a ruined engine?
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

9/17 -

Balancing - Pistons and Rods went in for balancing today. The crank and flywheel are being left as is but there is some question as to how it is balanced, internal or external. The flywheel appears to not have any balancing adjustments done to it nor does the crank therefore the weight of the pistons and rods may be critical.

Here's an aritical that describes the issue:

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/48121/understanding_crankshaft_balancing.aspx


Chasing Threads - Chasing threads in aluminum is not difficult or disasterous in any way.

The first trick of the trade is to own a thread gauge and a resonably accurate caliper. It's usually easiest to measure the threads per inch on the fastener that was originally used in the thread hole. The diameter is determined by the diameter of the fastener stock and not by the wrench that you use to remove it. I'm using the term fastener because the difference between 5/16 NPT (National Pipe Thread) and 5/16 NC (National Coarse) or NF (National Fine) is pretty dramatic. NC and NF are identical diameter stock but the threads per inch change. NPT is measured by the inside diameter of the stock and it uses a tapered thread for sealing puposes.

The second trick of the trade is to use a lubricant just as if you were cutting new threads. You should always use a lubricant whenever cutting threads no matter what material is being worked with. I use 2 cycle oil since it is a light weight oil and is easily disolved with gasoline. This is a good choice for a lubricant when working with any two cycle engine since any oil that is not cleaned out during the final block cleaning process can easily be digested by the engine. Please note, this is not an excuse to not worry about cleaning it all out. There will likely be metal particles left behind that will damage even the best built engines. Clean, clean, clean.

The third trick of the trade is to be precise. Start the tap by hand without a leverage device installed on the tap. You should be able to run it in by hand feeling only light resistance as you remove the corrosion and sealing materials that were left behind. When you remove the tap, be careful not to rock it from side to side as it exits the thread as this could damage the all important starting threads.

The fourth and final trick is to clear the hole before you try running a fastner into it. Flush it with liberal amounts of solvent and blow it out with compressed air until you are satisfied that all foriegn materials have been removed. Again, clean, clean, clean.

I don't care if you think chasing threads is wrong or not. I want my torque specs to be as accurate as possible and this is the only way that I know to accomplish that.

Port and Starboard - If you mix them up just remember that the marine industry is the only industry that uses them. I will not be using them in any further context of this thread unless it is absolutely necessary. We're building an engine here not navigating the ocean. Technically, the port side (larboard) is the side that the vessel where cargo is taken on in port and the starboard side is the side that the vessel is steered from. History wise it wasn't until the mid 1800's that it started to become standardized as meaning left (p) and right (s) when facing the bow.

I've been on a lot of ships and in one year alone logged over 100,000 open ocean nm. I've been on ships that take cargo on to port or starboard and many that steer from dead center.

On this engine the GLM pistons are marked "UP" so as long as up is up and down is down and you don't need to worry if port is left or right, wrong. What you need to worry about is if the pistons are correctly marked. This engines pistons have a boost port and the orientation of the piston must be aligned so that the boost port is correctly aligned in the cylinder. Just make sure that 3 align correctly on one side and 3 align correctly on the other before you send them off for machine work.
 

Jeff_G

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve I was only referring to chasing the threads in the rods, not the rest of the engine.

The flywheel and crank are balanced from the factory. If you look at your flywheel you will see what appears to be 1/2" drill marks around the flywheel, that is the balancing. The article you reference refers to automobile engines and is different for outboard two strokes.

Your pistons should be marked with a P and a S. I can't tell you how many times someone has reversed the pistons in the block.
BTW the aviation industry also use the same lighting for navigation. :)
 

sschefer

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Re: 1991 V135 - Project Engine

Steve I was only referring to chasing the threads in the rods, not the rest of the engine.

The flywheel and crank are balanced from the factory. If you look at your flywheel you will see what appears to be 1/2" drill marks around the flywheel, that is the balancing. The article you reference refers to automobile engines and is different for outboard two strokes.

Your pistons should be marked with a P and a S. I can't tell you how many times someone has reversed the pistons in the block.
BTW the aviation industry also use the same lighting for navigation. :)
Regarding the flywheel and crank. There are no balancing reliefs or plugs on either my crank or my flywheel. They are either new and never balanced or perfect. This is whats causing the concern.

Regarding reversing the pistons. Easily done if you don't pay attention. Two indicators if the pistons aren't marked:
1. The location of the pins
2. Boost port (if so equipped).
 
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