increasing horse power?

genaro

Recruit
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
3
I have two evinrude motors that are nearly identical. One is a 60 hp and one is a 75 hp. What increases the hp if the motors are nearly identical. I did notice that the carbs. have slight differences but they will bolt up to either. Is this what increases the hp. I think they are both rated for the same rpm. can I put the carb from the 75 hp parts motor on the 60 and increase the hp ?
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: increasing horse power?

exhaust manifold, porting, there are lots of differences.
 

genaro

Recruit
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
3
Re: increasing horse power?

So the exhaust ports are different. Can I change those out from one to the other. Or further more can I take all my parts off of my block and put on the 75hp I mean these motors are practically the same. I used the starter off of the 75 for the 60 no problem. they have the same fuel pump and as far as I can tell all the distributor and throttle links are usable to. So if I wanted to turn the 60 into a 75 what would I have to change or is it possible?
 

F_R

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
28,195
Re: increasing horse power?

So the exhaust ports are different. Can I change those out from one to the other. Or further more can I take all my parts off of my block and put on the 75hp I mean these motors are practically the same. I used the starter off of the 75 for the 60 no problem. they have the same fuel pump and as far as I can tell all the distributor and throttle links are usable to. So if I wanted to turn the 60 into a 75 what would I have to change or is it possible?

Don't kid yourself. The 60 horsepower is 3" bore, the 75hp is 3 3/8" bore, a big difference. The 60 is 70.7 cubic inches displacement, vs 89.5 cubes for the 75.

If it makes you feel any better, the 60 is only about 2mph slower on the average boat, and burns a lot less gas.
 

genaro

Recruit
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
3
Re: increasing horse power?

Absolutely, not even enough to encourage a headache over. haha I think I'll just stick with what I have. Which is a 15' 1977 Thundercraft with the 60 hp 1967 evinrude. It's a great motor, runs solid and sound. I had a 80 hp Mercury on a 17' Bonicraft. I guess I'm still wanting to compare the difference because the 80 hp would flat out move. Oh Well, I appreciate the help. Might try a jet boat next time LOL.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

exhaust manifold, porting, there are lots of differences.

Could you be a little more elaborate on the porting differences between cubically same motors and different nominal powers ?
 

Lion hunter

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
1,529
Re: increasing horse power?

I though FR was pretty elaborate. They are not cubically the same.
 

junior1113

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
763
Re: increasing horse power?

i have a 200hp witch is the exact same block as a 225 and a 250 the money it takes to change it is more than the price of a complete rebuild. you cant change the hp as easily as most people think. in this case were talking bigger cylinders more hp. those older mercs were faster than older john/rudes but not as reliable. today there very similar.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

Why is it when there is a post on motor power outputs and differences of same cubic and main frame motors that we cannot pin-point and discuss these differences on the engineering side and always have like "it is not cost effective" or general answers like "there are differences, exhaust, porting, carbs... "

It is those differences in detail that we are looking for, whether their easy and cheap to implement (like bolting on wider throat carbs), or harder and risky (like widening the exhaust port on the cylinder sleeve).

My opinion is that detailed engineering info and knowledge should be freely discussed here and peripheral matters such as cost effectiveness and the possibility to scrap our motors should be left to owners judgment.

If moderators think that modifications and conversions are beyond the scope of this forum, may let us know in order to stop posting relevant questions.
 

Rick.

Captain
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
3,740
Re: increasing horse power?

You can do anything you like. People are free to express their opinion and others are free to accept of reject same. Rick.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: increasing horse power?

Why is it when there is a post on motor power outputs and differences of same cubic and main frame motors that we cannot pin-point and discuss these differences on the engineering side and always have like "it is not cost effective" or general answers like "there are differences, exhaust, porting, carbs... "

Two reasons. First, most people here aren't going to know the finer details of what makes one engine develop a certain HP and another, a higher HP. The second reason is that most of us view these issues from a standpoint of practicality.

More often than not, this is an idea that would result in major surgery and cost. Most of the time, it just isn't worth the effort, because its cheaper to just swap the motor for one of a higher HP rating.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

Absolutely agree with what's been posted.

For us who are interested on the engineering side and have already made some research and concluded to most of what might be the differences (for example on the 40 to 55 2 cylinder line which i am after) and have the need for some detailed specific answers. I am sure that some of the moderators and others have these motors "in their system" and years of knowledge. I have 2 or 3 times, in other posts, tried to find out what are (if any!!!) the differences on the cylinder ports of the 40-55HP 2-cylinder blocks. The answers were that there are differences but not what differences are there.

My opinion is that not all knowledge is being shared and that is obviously all well. May it is more of a "repair as standard" as to "modify and convert" direction to this forum ?
 

Lion hunter

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Messages
1,529
Re: increasing horse power?

Dgartzos:

This is not offend you or any other person that asks these questions, but to give the answer youu want would take hours of research. When 2 motors seemingly use the same casting people assume that they are the same motor and the manufacturer has done something to limit hp on one of them. The only way to know if 2 motors are in everyway the same would be to compare part # of each and every part. Then if there is a difference not everyone knows what that is or how they differ. The original poster wanted to know what incresed the hp between the 2 motors. Alot of people can look at part #'s and tell him that they are different. FR gave him his answer, the increase in hp is from displacement. Beyond that answer unless the 1 in 1000 person that has ever tried to do the swap gets on here and answers no one may know what all the other differences are.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

Point understood and agree with view in post.
One could never expect of anyone on the forum to put any time into research to answer a specific question. Knowledge sharing is on a "already have it" basis.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: increasing horse power?

To a large degree, what you are after is an increase in "volumetric efficiency," which is simply a measurement of how much combustable mixture you can get into a cylinder of a given displacement.

Increasing volumeteric efficiency is largely a matter of "improved breathing." In order to accomplish this, the first thing you have to do is to improve scavaging of spent mixture. That means a larger and/or more efficient exhaust system. Simply put, you have to get all of the old mixture out, so you can get more of the fresh mixture in.

Once that is in place, improved intake and fuel supply characteriscs are needed. Whether you are talking about different carbs, different HS orifces, or less resistance to airflow on the intake side, the ability of the engine to deliver more fuel/air mixture to the combustion chambers, is the name of the game.

Really, these are issues that would be better answered in a forum geared towards people who like to tweak and/or race outboard motors. I think that you are looking in the wrong place for the level of advice needed to do these things.
 

kenmyfam

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 10, 2006
Messages
14,385
Re: increasing horse power?

My opinion on all this (but it's just my opinion now !! )
Can you make a smaller output motor into a bigger output motor ???
Yes !!!!
Is it worth it ???
No !!!
If you want more HP then get a bigger motor.
Unless you have a lot of time and money to invest in the project.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

Standing in the middle here. Operating a surgery on a motor to increase factory standard power output is one side and leaving it as it is the other. Going through most threads on power differences of same displacement motors (for example the 40-55 HP 2-cylinder line, which is my case), what is being asked, is if and how the owner of the lower HP - restricted motor can open it up. Going for a racing motor is another matter and possibly would result to a non lasting motor which no one here wants.

On the cost side, say you are the manufacturer and have to produce a 2-cylinder line with 40,45,48,50 and 55HP outputs. What do you do? different displacement to each output? you're out of business !!! So you build up your motor to it's full capabilities and then shut it down for market needs. For us, the owners, it is secure to think that the less costly the manufacturer suppressed the motors the less costly we can open them up !!!

Searching part numbers we see that the 48 and 50 are exactly the same motors, the 45 and 55 differ on the carbs only, all four above wear the same reed leaf stopper, the 40,45 and 55 wear the same reed leaf (that basically concludes that not much differences on reed vales altogether between all motors, except the 40HP stopper which may be more restricting than the others), 45 and 55 wear the same crankcase and exhaust housing as do the 40,48 and 50 and finally 40 and 45 wear slim throat carbs with relevant orifices plugs and 48,50 and 55 wear the wider ones.

So for us 40HP owners who want that costless 10HP, wide throat carbs is one for start (got mine for free of a '85 scrapped motor). Reed valves nothing much other than getting rid of these stoppers altogether (retain the holder !!!). Did those two it on mine, got loads more torque and 300rpm top end. Had been worried of spitting out liquid fuel through the exhaust but no spark plug color is as healthy as before (light brown).

On the exhaust side we have the 40,48 and 50 wearing the same housing and then the 45 and 55 wearing a two part housing. Manufacturer doesn't like many moulds! and just as well, his low cost restrictions may be our low cost too! There is question here. Is the exhaust housings where the 5 more HP come from on the 45 and 55? ...(1).

Last are the crankcases. We have a part number for the 40, one for the 48 and 50 and one for the 45 and 55 HP. Shaft, bearings and all inners are the same so we're left with the manifold, port sizes and position ...(2). We have seen before that manufacturer does not like many moulds, and i would guess that the case is one mould one manifold. After all it is extremely tight in there.
On port sizes is where there may be a costless difference as they are cut individually. A not cross examined info i have, is that the exhaust port on the 50 with respect to the 40, is wider upwards in the cylinder sleeve by 0.048". That would give the 50 model extra top end power with a compromise on torque low and midrange which is anyway somewhat accounted for by the wider throat carbs.

It is possible that between two identical motors as far as parts are concerned, the 48 and 50, nominal power output difference is of timing adjustments only ...(3).

There are three interesting (to me and possibly others) questions here. It is not that i will be grinding the exhaust port on my motor, most of it is having sashed it out.
 

F_R

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
28,195
Re: increasing horse power?

Standing in the middle here. Operating a surgery on a motor to increase factory standard power output is one side and leaving it as it is the other. Going through most threads on power differences of same displacement motors (for example the 40-55 HP 2-cylinder line, which is my case), what is being asked, is if and how the owner of the lower HP - restricted motor can open it up. Going for a racing motor is another matter and possibly would result to a non lasting motor which no one here wants.

On the cost side, say you are the manufacturer and have to produce a 2-cylinder line with 40,45,48,50 and 55HP outputs. What do you do? different displacement to each output? you're out of business !!! So you build up your motor to it's full capabilities and then shut it down for market needs. For us, the owners, it is secure to think that the less costly the manufacturer suppressed the motors the less costly we can open them up !!!

Searching part numbers we see that the 48 and 50 are exactly the same motors, the 45 and 55 differ on the carbs only, all four above wear the same reed leaf stopper, the 40,45 and 55 wear the same reed leaf (that basically concludes that not much differences on reed vales altogether between all motors, except the 40HP stopper which may be more restricting than the others), 45 and 55 wear the same crankcase and exhaust housing as do the 40,48 and 50 and finally 40 and 45 wear slim throat carbs with relevant orifices plugs and 48,50 and 55 wear the wider ones.

So for us 40HP owners who want that costless 10HP, wide throat carbs is one for start (got mine for free of a '85 scrapped motor). Reed valves nothing much other than getting rid of these stoppers altogether (retain the holder !!!). Did those two it on mine, got loads more torque and 300rpm top end. Had been worried of spitting out liquid fuel through the exhaust but no spark plug color is as healthy as before (light brown).

On the exhaust side we have the 40,48 and 50 wearing the same housing and then the 45 and 55 wearing a two part housing. Manufacturer doesn't like many molds! and just as well, his low cost restrictions may be our low cost too! There is question here. Is the exhaust housings where the 5 more HP come from on the 45 and 55? ...(1).

Last are the crankcases. We have a part number for the 40, one for the 48 and 50 and one for the 45 and 55 HP. Shaft, bearings and all inners are the same so we're left with the manifold, port sizes and position ...(2). We have seen before that manufacturer does not like many molds, and I would guess that the case is one mold one manifold. After all it is extremely tight in there.
On port sizes is where there may be a costless difference as they are cut individually. A not cross examined info i have is that the exhaust port on the 50 with respect to the 40 is wider upwards in the cylinder sleeve by 0.048". That would give the 50 model extra top end power with a compromise on torque low and midrange which is anyway somewhat accounted for by the wider throat carbs.

It is possible that between two identical motors as far as parts are concerned, the 48 and 50, nominal power output difference is of timing adjustments only ...(3).

There are three interesting (to me and possibly others) questions here. It is not that i will be grinding the exhaust port on my motor, most of it is having sashed it out.

You have obviously done the leg work on your particular motor and compared part numbers. If the part number is the same, the part is the same, pure and simple. However, if the part number is different, there is a difference somewhere in the part. I doubt that there is a single person on this forum that knows what the differences are on all the possible applications.

You are correct in assuming that the mfr takes a certain motor and de-tunes it in some way to reduce the horsepower to increase his model lineup offerings. Often it is simply a matter of carburetor size or exhaust tuning, the easiest things to change. On others such as the 18-20-25hp, there are numerous changes including different combinations of pistons and cylinder heads to modify the compression, a balanced crankshaft to stand higher RPMs,as well as the usual carburetors etc.

What we constantly get here on this forum are people looking for that magic horsepower that you get by changing carburetor jets or timing or something equally as simple. That is a dream world and just doesn't happen.

So we are back to the original. Compare every part number, then do the research to find out what makes the number different. Then maybe you can be the "expert" that has the answers...at least on your particular motor. But you still can't answer all the questions about other motors. Neither can I.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: increasing horse power?

Great post by F R and I agree with all but one thing - a different part number does not necessarily mean a different part. OMC/BRP has superceded part numbers in some cases. I've run across this quite a few times, thinking that two parts are physically different when they are not.

The problem, however, is that you can't tell right away - you have to do some homework.

As for the wisdom of all of this, if you can come up with free or very low cost, used parts and you enjoy working on your motor, going through a conversion might make some sense. It also might provide a lot of "hobby enjoyment" and satisfaction. If so, that's great and I certainly would never discourage anyone from pursuing this route. That said, and as F R pointed out, when this topic comes up most of the time, folks have a very unrealistic view of what is involved, both in terms of work and cost. They seem to think that they can just slap a part or two on the motor and have an instant power increase. Usually that is not the case.

I guess my bottom line view of all of this is, if you have the inclination, the mechanical ability and access to the needed parts at a cost that is acceptable to you, go for it.
 

DGartzos

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
82
Re: increasing horse power?

Well, that is the magic of it.

Think of Ole Evinrude trying to get the thing fire!!!

And after all these years of devotion to it, after having squeezed every one of your brain cells to have it run, law and consequently market scope comes along, having you leaving it with an imbalanced shaft, basically turning it back to a shaker as it would have been before you sashed out the need to balance the shaft ...

What a circle ?
 
Top