I've got a DT doosy for you.

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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DT200 Guru's,
There's got to be a DT tech/owner that's had this issue.
Engine is a 1989 DT 200K with about 700hrs and has been in the family since new. Always been on our Barefoot Sanger. The only problem this engine has had are a few bad sensors till now.
Just a few seasons ago the engine started this intermittent loss of about 30% HP when we get on plane. This problem hasn't gotten worse nor better. It always does it after I get on plane and back off the throttle but not all the time, then can only get 4000 rpm max. Never had any alarms audible or visual. All the warnings lights are operating properly. She starts up every time, purrs like a kitten and overall runs great with this one exception. This has been going on for the last two seasons. Had it in and out of the only Suzuki shop here in San Diego about 4 times trying to diagnose--great techs, just a very frustrating problem. I consider myself a great tech with countless hours of boating and professional troubleshooting experience but I've run out of ideas and I know there are guys with way more DT knowledge than I do on this site.
Here's what we found out:number 5 and 6 cylinders are not properly firing. We know this because after several hours of running with new plugs the bottom two look shiny and new with fuel and a little oil on them and some carbon, the other four look crisp and flawless--a little gray with very little carbon. Also, when the engine drops HP the timing drops from full WOT at 20 degrees full advance down to around 5 degrees--don't ask how we figured that out, probably broke half dozen laws doing it. Anyway, based on that, we knew it wasn't a fuel problem but had to be a simple glitch in the ignition system that's controlling the timing.
Here's what's been done so far: new oil flow sensor, water flow sensors, throttle position sensor switch, CDI unit, ignition control unit, fuel filters and all new plugs. The most challenging part is trying to induce and isolate the problem since it happens only at higher rpms and typically under load--tinkering with 200 horses at 30+ mph is scary but I can say it's been done. Any ideas would be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Mcgryger
 
Last edited:

cousinabe

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 13, 2001
Messages
765
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Poor high speed performance ignition system could be related to:
Faulty rev limit circuit.
Partially shorted stop circuit
Faulty ignition charge coil
Faulty ignition coil
Faulty CDI
Faulty pulser coil
Faulty rpm counter
Faulty or Misadjusted TPS

Do you have a manual for testing procedures?
 

rodbolt

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Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

ok, gotta do it.

never mind :).

ok something the ECU is seeing is backing off the timing into a failsafe mode.
use the yamaha test wheel or years ago suzuki actually put out a bulliten on how to modify an aluminium wheel to make a test wheel.
yes trouble shooting at 70+ mph is scary, I get to occasionally.
but once you have been tossed out at 55 MPH it aint so bad.
but what I would do is make sure either by testing fuel pump intake vacum or maybe fuel pump out pressue is to simply make sure fuel is avalible.
 

lawood

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Mar 11, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

hey mcgryger, if you find the problem please let me know, i have a 85 hp doing the same thing, lin=mits itself to 4400 instead of 5400 randomly. i notice a lack of power coming out of the hole and through the whole trottle range though. runs great sometimes. thanks, lee
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
Messages
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Cousinable,
Thanks for your reply.
I do have the factory service manual but trying to troubleshoot all these at 40mph has its limitations. I replaced the cdi and ICU and i would love to replace the rest of the expensive ignition parts to try to troubleshoot via shotgun theory but it isn't going to be cost effective. All those items you've listed are definitely suspect but there's no one miracle pill in the manual to cure this symptom...unfortunately.
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Hey Cousinable,
What's the stop circuit?
I always thought it could be a broken or shorting wire, but the inconsistent symptoms are consistent; you know?--unlike a broken wire or short.
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Hi Rodbolt,
Thanks for your reply.
I did a visual on the fuel pump that delivers to the lower cylinders but never checked pressure nor did a visual on the other pump. Do you think the lack of pressure would drop the timing and prevent the lower two cylinders from firing properly? It looks like the bottom cylinders are getting fuel because the plugs are very wet and clean.
 

reeldutch

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Feb 2, 2004
Messages
1,340
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

i would check the tps sensor.
that will influance the timing.
there is a tps procedure in the service manual.
 

cousinabe

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Nov 13, 2001
Messages
765
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

I would first do what rodbolt suggests. He has the most experience here.
If fuel pressures are good I would then make sure your throttle sensor within spec and adjusted correctly. Make sure there are no dead spots. Then test the other items listed.
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

The shop here in town replaced the throttle position sensor and that worked for the first 2 hrs, but then went back to the same problem as before. They thought the new sensor went bad and replaced it again and had no change. So, I've gone through 3 tps and made slight adjustments to the latest one to see if there was any dead spots and found nothing wrong with any of the sensors or adjustments. I even tried manually manipulating the sensor to get the timing to advance and figured that doesn't work very well at all--it was too hard to get the sweet spot through the throttle range.
 

cousinabe

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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Check the fuel pressures as Rodbolt suggests.
T in vacuum gauge to get some pressure readings.

Does pumping the primer ball affect things while this is happening?
 

mcgryger

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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Priming the bulb was one of the first things I tried and had no impact on performance.
 

cousinabe

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Messages
765
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

i'm still sticking with rodbolts suggestion thinking it's fuel restriction related and it makes sense. make sure you are getting good fuel pressures at problem rpms.
I know on some older yamahas, the fuel connector was a restriction culprit. There's an oring in there that wasn't designed for E10 fuels and would swell up and cause a restriction at high speeds.

get some pressure readings.
 

mcgryger

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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

Just wanted to give you guys an update encase you had any other ideas. Took the boat out today and tested the fuel pump pressure and vacuum. Pressure was 2 psi and vacuum was barely measurable. Both the pressure and vacuum were stable or constant during the symptoms and without the symptoms.
Seems like it's now getting worse. Does it during throttle up now instead of backing down from full throttle.
I'll try to diagnose ignition parts and single out the issue.
Any suggestions?
 

reeldutch

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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

if you have almost no vacuum on the fuel hose that means you could have a Air leak.

get a clear vinyl hose and plum it in the fuel line.
check for bubbles while you run the engine and the problem occurs.
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

The fuel pumps and lines have never been serviced or replaced. I inspected one pump and everything looked perfect, no cracks or signs of trouble. Fuel lines and filters are flawless. I'll double check the exact vacuum reading i was getting and get back to you.
 

mcgryger

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Apr 3, 2009
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Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

I found a smoking gun!!!
Thanks to Cousinabe, Reeldutch and Rodbolt, I ordered up fuel pump service kits and started the install. While doing this, I decided to thoroughly check out the pumps again--here's where I discovered a hole in the tiny clear plastic check (?) valve/disc within the body of the pump; I can't believe i didn't see this before--i must have looked at those little clear pieces two times before. Anyway, each pump has two of these valves which controls flow direction and pressure through the two chambers of each pump. I took awesome pics to show the part and where the hole was but resolution is too high to post here--if someone wants pics, let me know. You can't miss them! Each one is about .5"-.75" diameter. In addition, this defunct valve is in the pump that delivers to the culprit cylinders that I described to you in earlier posts. Unfortunately, these little discs are sold separately so, one disc is going to cost about $150 to replace. I'll give you another update after i test the new discs.
 

cousinabe

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Nov 13, 2001
Messages
765
Re: I've got a DT doosy for you.

glad to hear you are making progress on this one.

is the piece you're talking about in the fuel pump itself?
an entire new fuel pump costs $79 at the link i sent above.
 
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