WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

[Bubba1235]

Anyone else followed the legislation (passed) concerning gasoline boat engine polution?

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/marinesi.htm


I was reading Boating mag. last night and how this is going to effect the cost of boats. Merc is saying the average cost for a drive system will increase an average of $4000 !!! (Smaller engines are aound 3K while larger can get up to over 6K)

Don't get me wrong, I do understand why they want to clean up engine exhausts but come on, $4000 for a catalitic convertor? Either Merc has decided to get rich selling them, or they are pricing it so high people complain and maybe get the law repealed.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

I remeber days of long ago when cats were first used....ever see a cat plug choke off a motor and turn bright red..that's scortching red....I cant imagine what it took to work around something like that..

With fuel injection evolving like it has and advanced eletronics....it seems border line incompetence they dont take the time to develop this in boats...The fact of the matter is if the modern efi comp system is working it so good most deq stations dont even bother to read the exhaust emmison's..if the comp is functional it passes..

4000.00 for a cat...sounds like government bureaucracy and big business..sound familar

 

[dubs283]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Yeah, kinda silly huh? Boaters use what, about 1% of all fuel consumed in the US, if that?? Are we really gonna save the environment by catalyzing marine engines. Now there's talk of catalyzing outboards too!!
Yeah, the 8.1 Liters have 6 individual cats, 3 on each manifold, so could be 4 large for that model. Prices will vary depending on model for sure. I wonder how much they will be for the efi 3.0 Liter??

 

[mthieme]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

...just another beauraucratic feel good passage that's going to allow manufacturers to get in our pockets.
Wanna stop air pollution - stick catalytic converters on the coal plants.
Anyone live in the NE in 2003?

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Volvo already have them out being sold. Mostly in California right now.
There are all kinds of temp and overtemp sensors in the system along with all new style exhaust manifolds O2 sensors, ECM, etc. Of course the change is much more expensive now to pay for alll the manufacturing needed to design and build a working system. Unlike cars, there are not MILLIONS of them being sold.
The catalitic converters are $819 each when replacement is needed.
Here is a picture of the system Volvo has, converters are circled in red

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

One warning here guys, turn this political, and it will go away just as fast as if it were in Dockside Chat

 

[mthieme]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

MD is pushing hard to get CA standards.

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

I didn't say it needed to be moved Bubba, and I didn't direct that statement to you or anyone in particular. I said to not let it turn political or it goes away. This type of thing always has a way of turning political.

 

[cribber]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

I really fail to see the need for a catalytic converter on a 3.0l 4banger. My Volvo 3.0 already is labeled ultra low emissions right on top of the engine. That coupled with an automotive converter costing around $300 makes the quoted $4K in the article an extreme exaggeration of the costs. $400 each seems more realistic in my mind.

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

That coupled with an automotive converter

And just how do you think an automotive catalitic converter is going to work with salt water running through it to cool it????

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

so when you buy a new car they miake you sign a statement that you will not remove the cat or other epa things.. I guess it would be the same deal for the new boats? Other wise once it broke I am sure you could just take it off and ... er... striaght pipe it.

 

[QC]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Many imports (cars and trucks) manage to meet requirements without a cat.

Name one contemporary example . . .

$4000? That's a bargain. I just delivered this one for a measly $235K

That's a man between the two exhaust inlets . . .

 

[chiefalen]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Older boats are gonna start looking better and better. Maybe prices will go up for them.

Say you buy a 90' something boat as a owner and drop in a motor who's to stop you?

No cat no nothing epa, may be the way to go.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Was at the Raritain boat show today, was drooling over a Stieger pilot house, with ( i can't believe i'm gonna post this ) 250 e-tec. 43,000 dollars, last years model, leftover.

The boats i have now are in my sig, but with the prices and mandates maybe i never will be able to afford a 2 year old boat.

I mean collage 4 kids, i just don't see a way for me at least.

Oh well don't have to worry about the first scratch on a new boat.

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Not to be mean here but as an engineer I can think of at least half a dozen ways to do it. But then to be honest, I think the cost of marine manifolds is way to high and you pay it because you have no choice.

A catalitic convertor can't be cooled, it depends on high heat to work. Depending on configuration between 400F and 600 F. At first blush, I'd say cermic coat it with low thermal transfer ceramics and stick it in the riser (sort of like VOLVO) and call it good.

I understand that the CC (Catalitic Converter) can't be cooled, what I was referring to is the cooling on the outside of the CC. In the Volvo's, the manifolds and risers are cooled and the CC is inside of the manifold. What I was referring to earlier was the fact that you can't just stick an automotive CC in a boat and make it work.

 

[QC]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Catalyst heat is extremely important for it to catalyse properly. Relatively low diesel exhaust temps are a big problem for light load efficiency of cats for example . . .

 

[Don S]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Sort of wish I could see a set up from Merc or Volvo to see what they did to make it worth $4K.

It's not just the CC that cost 4K, it's the completly new systems they work in. Like I mentioned earlier, there are lots of extra sensors, and new manifold designs that have to be paid for. And they don't get that paid for by amortizing it over 10 million cars, more like 50 new boats in California for right now.
Don't forget the new Aluminum/coated manifolds thermostats that control the cooling water from the mainfold to the riser, and all the stuff that goes with it. Look at the parts drawing I posted earlier. None of that stuff was on a 2007 model.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

...and I suppose they will come up with a mandatory annual emissions test as well.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

I agree an off the shelf cat isn't going to work without modification. Thats why I said cermic coat it. We have ceramic coatings that at 1/8" thickness you can put an oxy/acl totch on one side for 10 minutes and hold you hand against it on the other.

Sort of wish I could see a set up from Merc or Volvo to see what they did to make it worth $4K.

Ahh you mean they could heat a O2 sensor in a cermamic coating and actually get it to work @ 250 degrees rather than heating the cat material up to 1200-1600 and get the cat to scrub what could have been done @250...really.......

Now lets not talk about how a feed back loop in a boat...lets just use a nuke...sorry for the sarcasm..

 

[DJ]

Re: WOW, catalytic converters cost $4000 ????

Many imports (cars and trucks) manage to meet requirements without a cat. .

I agree with QC. Name ONE current production model .

There's more to $4K than just bolting on a cat. As Don S mentioned, there is:

1. Development.

2. Research.

3. Other new parts (ECM, etc.).

4. The quantities are fairly low, compared to automotive. Thus, payback for real dollars spent either takes longer or has to be spread over fewer units.