What did I do wrong?

[CFPena]

4 months ago, I completely rebuilded my 89 Force 125. Including the water pump kit (housing, impeller, plate, gaskets and key). At the time and after installing the tell-tale (as described here at another post) I got a good stream of water out of it. Being busy at work, kept me from ever putting the boat in the water and after a little break, with gas prices at an affordable level and with good weather here in my area I decided to take the day off today and go try it out. But for some reason I got no water out the tell tale. So I changed my mind and decided to find out what went wrong. The whole day went on and I didn't have time to take it apart but here I am looking at part catalogues and I'm finding out they offer different part numbers for the 89 model year.

This one is a model 1258F9D. And the water pump kit that I used is part # 3218. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance

 

[pnwboat]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Since it was working when you initially installed it, I would suspect some type of blockage in the telltale output tube. You mentioned you put it in the water. How long did you run it? Did the overheat alarm go off? When a motor sits for an extended time it's not uncommon for insects to build nests in the openings in the motor. Mud dauber wasps like to build nests in water intake and output openings. Check that first before you tear it apart.

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Since it was working when you initially installed it, I would suspect some type of blockage in the telltale output tube. You mentioned you put it in the water. How long did you run it? Did the overheat alarm go off? When a motor sits for an extended time it's not uncommon for insects to build nests in the openings in the motor. Mud dauber wasps like to build nests in water intake and output openings. Check that first before you tear it apart.

Thanks for your response. Just to clarify.....I never put the boat in the water, I had it running with the water hose and the ear muffs. That's a good possibility, but I doubt is the case since the powerhead reached 300*F and I saw steam coming out the telltale. The alarm never went off.

Do you know if this is the correct part number for this application?

Thanks

 

[Mark42]

Re: What did I do wrong?

My bet is you got a bug in the hose. Take the hose off and try to blow it clear. Also, try running on the muffs with the hose off. If no water comes out, probe the fitting with wire to make sure slag or scale did not block it.

 

[pnwboat]

Re: What did I do wrong?

P/N 3218 is the correct part number for a 1989 D model. I always compare the gaskets between the replacement and original just to be sure. It's pretty obvious.

You said you saw steam coming out of the tell tale? That would concern me too. Sometimes it's hard to get enough water flow with the muffs. Double check your hose and muff alignment on the water intakes. Maybe you had a kink in the hose? If the tell tale tube is clear, then I would check the thermostat. They're rated at either 130 degrees or 143 degrees. Might want to double check that but I don't think the engine is ever supposed to get anywhere close to 300 degrees. Try running it without the thermostat as a test. If still no water flow and you feel you're supplying enough water with the muffs then next step would be to take the lower end off to check the water pump and the alignment/seal of the water tube between the pump and the block.

One other note, before you run your new motor under a load in the lake, double the amount of oil during the break in. Seen several newly re-built engines with scored cylinders due to improper oil mixture during break-in resulting in low compression. At least that was the opinion of several mechanics, but you know how opinions are......

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

P/N 3218 is the correct part number for a 1989 D model.

Thanks, that's the answer I was waiting for. With that out of the way, I can concentrate on something else.

One other note, before you run your new motor under a load in the lake, double the amount of oil during the break in. Seen several newly re-built engines with scored cylinders due to improper oil mixture during break-in resulting in low compression. At least that was the opinion of several mechanics, but you know how opinions are......

My understanding is this engine uses a 50:1 mix. So are you saying I should go 25:1? And if so, How long would it take to properly break it in? One tank? Two? I have a 60 gallon tank.

Thanks for sharing your experience

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Use 1 quart TCW-III per 6 gallons gasoline. Since my personal opinion is that assembly lube or fresh unheated TCW-III oil used for assembly has less lubricity than heated oil within the crankcase, do not run the engine over 3/4 throttle until this gas is used. That means you will have passed 1 quart of oil through the engine with some staying inside it.

If you want to be safe, use 12 gallons of double mix. After that, you should be fine for full throttle operation for short bursts. My personal opinion is no prolonged full throttle operation until the engine has over 10 hours on it.

As an added note, when I rebuild an engine and take it out for water trials, after about 1/2 hour (to ensure some oil is in it) I will take a very short full throttle run or two to confirm that operational timing is correct and full RPM is being developed. Then back to low RPM operation until enough oil has been run through it and rings have seated themselves to the cylinder walls. It also tells me that idle will come back to normal after a high speed run.

I consider these brief bursts harmless, a necessary diagnostic tool, and part of the rebuild.

AND: By the way: Did you check the gearcase sealing plate below the water pump? On the '89 this should be a torpedo shaped plate about 8 inches long, held on by the 4 water pump bolts plus one in the front and two in the rear.

If the center wall of this plate is corroded or worn to the point where the gasket below the stainless water pump plate will not seal it, it will short circuit water from the pump outlet to the inlet side. Sufficient water will be delivered for low speed cooling, but an insufficent quantity might be delivered at higher speeds, resulting in hot operation.

Since there is no seal between the rear of the plate and the cooling water inlet cavity, (which is massive), there is also the potential to suck air there while running on the water. Obviously, on muffs, there will be pressure and no air will enter. While I don't do it myself, I have seen numerous plates sealed with RTV silicone at this point.

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Thanks for your responses.

Tomorrow saturday, I will have some extra time to look into this a little further. I'll keep ya posted.

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Finally after a non-stop 2 months I got a little time off from work and I got to work on this thing......again. Here's the scoop:

The water pump that was in it came out in 2000 pieces. Ok, I thought, I'd probably put the thing on backwards or something and after replacing it.....again....it should be fine. Wrong!

Cranked it up .....on ear muffs.....let it idle for a few minutes while constantly scanning the operating temp with the infrared thermometer........no water flowing out the tell tale. I turned it off and took the thermostat out.....only to find out that it was wide open! and there weren't any water anywhere near it!

So off the lower unit.....again....I checked for obstructions on the water pump output tube (to powerhead) and it was clear. I'd blow air thru it.....and since the thermostat was off, I verified it was clear all the way. I even put the water hose to it until water came off the powerhead. No problem there.

Water pump back off...again...it looks ok this time. Checked for obstructions on the intake passages and there were none. I even hooked the ear muffs back to lower unit and verified I got water flowing all the way up to the pump. Everything looks ok.

What am I missing?????????

I even went back and re-read Frank's detailed description on the impeller change word by word and I'm still clueless. Oh, by the way Frank, very good post.

Help!

 

[cordell]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Just did a quick read but it sounds like when you are putting the LU back on the pump housing is not lining up with the tube that supplies the water. If not done perfectly the tube will move not allowing it to go inside of the housing, therefor no water....


cordell

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Just did a quick read but it sounds like when you are putting the LU back on the pump housing is not lining up with the tube that supplies the water. If not done perfectly the tube will move not allowing it to go inside of the housing, therefor no water....


cordell

Thanks for your response, Cordell. I don't think that's possible on this model since the tube is rock solid, it won't move side to side. But nevertheless I'll have a second look at it. I'm at a point were ANY fresh perspective is appreciated.

Pena

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

It keeps getting better and better. I just found out part of the reason the water pumps keep on coming apart: They're pumping water AND gear oil

I put this thing back on this morning and used a water tank this time........oh man what a waste of time......still no water out the tell-tale.

Took it back apart and the pump (after just a couple minutes) is in pieces. This time I noticed the output tube had gear oil in it. I went ahead and pulled the plate under the pump and I can't see anything wrong with it.

Just to be clear. I had replaced ALL lower unit seals a few months ago (when I rebuilded the powerhead). Is a damn shame, this thing runs like a champ
WTF?????????? What's next? Do I need to start saving for a new O/B?????

 

[CFPena]

Re: What did I do wrong?

Being that I'm off from work, I still have time to mess with this thing. This morning I have a clear mind. The best thing, I found out, that you can do when confused is step away for a little while.

Turns out putting this thing on the test tank wasn't a complete waste of my time, since I can see traces of gear oil in it, which means the pump was in fact pumping:redface:

After giving it more tought, the only way for the oil to enter the water pump housing is thru the seals right below it. After checking, on Frank's advise, the torpedo looking plate (which holds both seals) I found it to be ok, the gasket seals perfect on the plate surface.

This seals were replaced along with the rest of the lower unit seals when the powerhead was rebuilded. The boat haven't seen the lake yet.

I have ordered yet another impeller and another lower unit seal kit. It should be here early part of next week.

Before I go ahead and make the same mistakes I like to know if I understand this correctly: This are 2 seals, one right under the other, a little one about 1-1/4 inch in diameter and goes on the impeller side and a bigger one about 1-1/2 inch that goes on the gear case side. The little one should go facing down? (with the spring towards the impeller) and the big one facing up? (with the spring facing the gear case). Is this correct?

Also, Should I try to flush the "milkshake" out of the lower unit? and if so, What should I use? Or should I just flush and refill?

Thanks