Starting issue or seized engine???

[4Winns2]

I'm stumped. (Sorry in advance for the long post.)
My boat: 1990 Four Winns 4.3 litre OMC Cobra.

What happened? Blew a water inlet hose on the drive; boat overheated and I shut her down. Let her cool down and tried to re-start: click, click click and a tow back to the marina. Bear in mind I was having the click starter beforehand and tightening and cleaning connections apparently had fixed this.

Pulled the drive and the pivot housing to replace hose and both bellows and grease the U-joints.

Went to start her up and click, click, & click. Pulled Don's well done starter guide and printed it. Took my test light and everything seemed to check out: test lit at appropriate places on both the starter and slave solenoids; although, the light was week on the slave terminal that you check while attempting to click the switch to start. No meter test was done. I also had pulled the plugs to see if there was water, none. Tried to manually turn the engine over with a breaker bar, won't budge.

Replaced the starter and starter solenoid last night. Click, click, click. The only part left in the circuit is the slave solenoid. I'm just wondering is it possible to seize the engine on such a short overheat. Jeez, boats overheat all the time and don't seize engines but now I'm wondering if I did?

Oil looks fine in the crankcase- -no milkshake. Do I start beer drinking on land now and call it a season? Your suggestions are appreciated in advance.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Oops, forgot to mention that I put a new battery in. The other one was around 5 or 6 years old and thought it's time for a new one any ways. Help fellow boaters, please. Beer doesn't taste as good on land.

 

[mkast]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

The starting circuit is presumed to be operational.
Remove the spark plugs. Two ounces of Areo Kroil oil in each cylinder, wait a couple of days. While the plugs are still out of the engine, try the starter.
I read a million years ago, engine overheat, trace oil on the cylinder walls spot weld the piston to the cylinder walls. Try and break it free with penetrating oil.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Pull the plugs and attempt to turn it over by hand via wrench/bar and socket on the front pulley/crank bolt. That will identify whether or not it's seized etc..

Good luck

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

The starting circuit is presumed to be operational.
Remove the spark plugs. Two ounces of Areo Kroil oil in each cylinder, wait a couple of days. While the plugs are still out of the engine, try the starter.
I read a million years ago, engine overheat, trace oil on the cylinder walls spot weld the piston to the cylinder walls. Try and break it free with penetrating oil.

Starter circuit has tested good. Took the plugs out the day after and no water came out. Put a breaker bar on the front pulley and crank/pistons wouldn't budge.

Was told by a mechanic friend moments ago to use PB Blaster (he told me a can for each side/3cylinders per); soak the pistons via spark plug holes and keep trying to break it free. Have never heard of Areo Kroil oil before? Parts stores have it I would presume and is better than PB Blaster?

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Pull the plugs and attempt to turn it over by hand via wrench/bar and socket on the front pulley/crank bolt. That will identify whether or not it's seized etc..

Good luck

Thanks for the help Smitty. Yeah, already pulled the plugs and put a breaker bar on the front crank pulley, wouldn't budge. Hard to believe a little over heat did this? If water got in, (and evaporated cause none came out the next day when I pulled the plugs), I don't know where the he** in came from.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

While cranking the front pulley with a breaker bar, I did take both the power steering and alternator belts off. Just a little FYI to this thread. Thanks everybody for helping out. I look forward to more ideas on this. The ones I'm getting are great. Best boat forum on the net.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

^^^ Sorry to hear that,

Maybe the penetrating oil technique mentioned by mkast will help?

Fingers crossed here too!

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

^^^ Sorry to hear that,

Maybe the penetrating oil technique mentioned by mkast will help?

Fingers crossed here too!

Thanks again Smitty. If it does, I'm wondering what damage was done internally to the engine if any? Just sounds like the pistons have rusted themselves to the piston walls. I've only got 4 short (3 months per) seasons on this remanned long block.

 

[hard-3]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

is the drive still out ? If not is it possible that something is binding up, keeping from turning over. How hot did you get it? For a piston to melt to the cyl wall it would have had to be really hot. If thats the case , you might as well start looking for an engine , cause you can spray what ever you want in the sparkplug hole but it ain't going to repair a scored cylinder wall or fix a cracked piston. the only sure way to know is to pull the heads and take a look .

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

is the drive still out ? If not is it possible that something is binding up, keeping from turning over. How hot did you get it? For a piston to melt to the cyl wall it would have had to be really hot. If thats the case , you might as well start looking for an engine , cause you can spray what ever you want in the sparkplug hole but it ain't going to repair a scored cylinder wall or fix a cracked piston. the only sure way to know is to pull the heads and take a look .

No, I've reinstalled the drive after changing the inlet water hose that caused the overheating. What could be binding that would prevent me from turning the engine with a breaker bar?

I don't think she got that hot to crack pistons and walls. It was a quick blown hose, a quick heat up and I shut down.

You're right, taking a look at the pistons with the heads off would tell a lot.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Just noticed you did mention the "manual" attempt to rotate in your first post.. My bad.

The fact you shut it down vs it stopping on its own gives me a little warm fuzzy that it shouldn't be a "hard seize" - as mentioned above where metal scored metal - merged as one....

I would press forward literally "drowning" each cylinder with penetrating oil and let it sit for several hours/overnight etc.. If this works, just be aware that you will need to change your engine oil afterwords due to near all of the penetrating oil will make its way into the oil/pan etc..


Good luck 4Winns2

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Just noticed you did mention the "manual" attempt to rotate in your first post.. My bad.

The fact you shut it down vs it stopping on its own gives me a little warm fuzzy that it shouldn't be a "hard seize" - as mentioned above where metal scored metal - merged as one....

I would press forward literally "drowning" each cylinder with penetrating oil and let it sit for several hours/overnight etc.. If this works, just be aware that you will need to change your engine oil afterwords due to near all of the penetrating oil will make its way into the oil/pan etc..


Good luck 4Winns2

Smitty:

I need to send you some Canadian beer from Syracuse (45 minutes from the border) for all your help today. Couldn't get such beer while living in DFW for eight years- -I guess I'm a semi-native Texan.

Good news! Yeah, I agree that the quick shutdown I did may have prevented fusing the pistons to the walls and some penetrating oil is the key. Good call on changing the oil afterwards- -hadn't thought of that being in a tizzy over getting back on the water.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Went home at lunch and blasted each cylinder with 3 ounces of PB Blaster. I'll hit it again after work and then try to un-seize it. Fingerssss are crossed.

 

[KJSmitty]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Hopefully you will be successful. Maybe tonight squirt a shot of that good Canadian Beer in each hole just for good measure!

- A little beer has helped me get out of a few "tight" situations before... Or maybe it helped me get into a tight situation,,,,, hmmmm...

Good luck!

Cheers

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

Hopefully you will be successful. Maybe tonight squirt a shot of that good Canadian Beer in each hole just for good measure!

- A little beer has helped me get out of a few "tight" situations before... Or maybe it helped me get into a tight situation,,,,, hmmmm...

Good luck!

Cheers

Thanks Smitty:

I'm going to soak those pistons with whatever it takes until they move. I'll be doing the one for you seven for me method on the beer thought.

 

[hard-3]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

what did the spark plugs look like? any signs of melting or detonation?
Could have just gotten hot enough to lean out and blow up. Try puling drive out and barring over with breaker bar just to make sure something didn't fall into the rotating asembly and lock it up. also try rotating backwords.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

what did the spark plugs look like? any signs of melting or detonation?
Could have just gotten hot enough to lean out and blow up. Try puling drive out and barring over with breaker bar just to make sure something didn't fall into the rotating asembly and lock it up. also try rotating backwords.

hard-3:

Spark plugs were dry and and what looked like normal burn on them all. Again, no water came out of any cylinder when I pulled them.

The one thing that came to mind today is when I tried to turn the pulley on the front of the engine I had the outdrive all the way up. I don't know if this makes any difference (down or up) while doing this since the engine is neutral with the alternator & power steering belts off and plugs out; hence, no resistance to turning the crank and pistons.

I don't think understand what you're saying about pulling the drive off and.... Thank you sir for your expertise. I look forward to your response.

 

[hard-3]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

I guess my question is Would it turn over before you removed the out drive to replace the hoses and re-installed it . is it possible something might be wedged in the flywheel locking it up and keeping it from turning. To lock up the rotating assembly by overheating it ,it would have gotten really hot. something could have broken internally, spun bearings,broken crank,broken timing chain, ect. most of these items will still let you turn over the engine with great resistance. for it to not turn at all it would seem that something was interfering with the rotating assembly. try to turn over in both rotations to see if something is locking it up. unless it got hotter than you think.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Starting issue or seized engine???

I guess my question is Would it turn over before you removed the out drive to replace the hoses and re-installed it . is it possible something might be wedged in the flywheel locking it up and keeping it from turning. To lock up the rotating assembly by overheating it ,it would have gotten really hot. something could have broken internally, spun bearings,broken crank,broken timing chain, ect. most of these items will still let you turn over the engine with great resistance. for it to not turn at all it would seem that something was interfering with the rotating assembly. try to turn over in both rotations to see if something is locking it up. unless it got hotter than you think.

I thought afterwards that I should have tried to turn the pulley with a breaker bar to see if she would rotate the engine. It was just that, an afterthought. I was too involved in replacing the hose in the outdrive to think ahead.

I like your theory on an obstruction being lodged somewhere. I will try and rotate the crank both directions to see what happens.

I've got the first blast of PB Blaster in her now. I'll try some light pressure with the breaker bar tonight in both directions. If there isn't any luck, I'll blast the cylinders holes again and let her soak.

I was reading today that un-seizing the engine could take up to a week of soak, push, and soak again. Thanks hard-3 for your suggestions. Keep em coming if you can think of anymore.