Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

[Expidia]

Sorry for the long post, but I want to give you the whole picture with the decision I need to make

So now I've settled on the model: the Starcraft Islander 221 BRKT (22 foot aluminum about 2500 lbs with outboard and extended transom bracket). Closer to 24 feet over all.

So the forum has already helped me decide on the boat model and the tow vehicle.

Now on to the power . . . It's going to be a 4 Stroke Merc Verado, so I don't need any opinions on other brands or 2 strokes other than actual experience using a 150-200 hp 4 stroke.

I wanted to post this at Club Verado, but they are re-doing their site and no new postings except from existing members I think. If someone is a member could they post this question over there too, Thx. I know there will be some actual user experience over there.

It's mid Winter here in the Northeast, so I can't just go down a lake and have a dealer allow me to test drive the difference. If I go with a 2008, I'll have to order it by April/March if I want to see it for most of this seasons use.

On these Verado options:
150 = 510 lbs $11,400 (4 cyl)
175 = 510 " $12,842 "
200 = 510 " $15,650 "
200 = 635 " $16,530 (new 6 cyl)

Inboard hp rating is 225 and probably weighs about 1000 lbs, but that weight is more towards the center of the boat. This model with the bracket is going to put a lot of weight really far back.

From experience I now know "go with the max hp the boat can take" and I know I'll never be happy unless I'm at the max.

But here are some other concerns I have. I'll probably use my 9.9 Merc for trolling and as an auxiliary motor. I do a lot over cruising so I can also just use the 9.9 for the times I'm trolling too but at 87 lbs it's not easy to mount on and off. It's either going to be on all the time or I'm not going to use it.

Dealers tell me these 4 and 6 cyl can troll all day at 1-2 mph. I'm Leary of that statement! I know I could use a trolling plate or a chute to slow it down, but is it good for these new motors to troll that slow for long periods of time? My feelings are that it would be safer to use the 9.9 and have a spare motor too.

But that added 87 lbs with the new 200 6 cyl model it will be 722 lbs hanging way off that transom.

Since I've never driven this newer model I might also need the added expense ($500 plus) for helm controlled trim tabs with the 150 hp and or the 9.9. I might need the trim tabs for all the models just for better handling with more people on board. The I/O model shows two seats also right at the back of the transom, but that motors further forward.

The expense of the 6 cyl over the 150 is $5110 (but it's only $860 more than the 200 4 cyl). $5110 could go towards the used 03/04 tow vehicle I need to buy.

So since I can't drive the difference between the 150 and a 200 on this model what are some opinions. The boat usually comes with the 150 but now Starcraft is not tied to any brand motor anymore. But some dealers are only tooled to what brand outboards they sell.

I've already had one dealer tell me if they have the model in stock with a 150 Optimmax 2 stroke or a 150 4 stroke, he wouldn't take it off and swap it for a 200 even if I wanted to pay the difference. Crossed him right off .

So I'd like to hear from some boaters that have had actual experience with these bigger hp motors on 22-24 foot boats (especially an aluminum model). And if the 200 6 cyl is still only the same hp as the 200 4 cyl, is it really worth the extra weight and cost?

150 or 200 or 200 6 cyl, 9.9 mounted or not, Trim tabs probably for 150, but not sure if they would be needed with a 200 yet

 

[QC]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

It's going to be a 4 Stroke Merc Verado

Well this is the only thing I would argue with you about, the rest is pretty simple . . .

From experience I now know "go with the max hp the boat can take" and I know I'll never be happy unless I'm at the max.

This statement eliminates the 150 and 175, and I agree with it. So that leaves this:

200 = 510 " $15,650 "
200 = 635 " $16,530 (new 6 cyl)

For me the weight is almost the entire discussion. I don't care about torque in most marine applications. If I am not pulling a skier, and she will plane with the 4 cyl (she will), then I don't want the 6 cyl. 200 hp is 200 hp unless they are liars . . .

My feelings are that it would be safer to use the 9.9 and have a spare motor too.

But that added 87 lbs with the new 200 6 cyl model it will be 722 lbs hanging way off that transom.

See above.

Since I've never driven this newer model I might also need the added expense ($500 plus) for console controlled trim tabs with the 150 hp and or the 9.9. I might need the trim tabs for all the models just for better handling with more people on board.

For me I will NEVER own a v-hull without helm adjustable trim tabs. Another non-discussion.

My .02s . . . Fun time, I like vicariously shopping for boats here. Great fun, 'specially since it's your money. If you are going to dive in this deep, don't look back.

 

[rndn]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I troll for hours with my bow mounted electric motor. It has the compass based autopilot so steering it is a breeze. I have two marine deep cycle batteries and they run the 55# thrust motor for hours. I have yet to run out of juice before I get tired of fishing. It's also dead quiet and no fumes.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Thx QC. What you say is all true and in my heart I know it's all true I just need to hear it from someone else.

I too figured the 200 4 cyl being the same weight as the 150 was a no brainer, but if a used rig happens to have a 150 on it already . . . An immediate $4000 plus to upgrade to the 200 is a big step up and more if the 150 I'll need to dump is used.

If I can find a new 07 the motor will also be new, so I won't take as big a hit on a swap at the same dealer I buy the boat from aside from maybe labor from some dealers. Should be all the same cables etc.

What's your opinion on keeping the 9.9 on at all times?
or
Trolling with a 200 ?

If I tried to wait to upgrade to the 200 if a used rig came up . . . like you say, I'd be adding the tabs on anyway for the 150 or 200.

Since I can't easily run out to the bow on this style boat (gunnels that run along the cuddy look to be real narrow in the pics, I'd even add bow thrusters if they made them reasonable for an aluminum boat. Anyone know if they are available? Maybe this would be overkill or maybe I could just learn how to drive!

Say did we go to College together??? Because your comment "If you are going to dive in this deep, don't look back"

That's the same thing this OLD HOOKER once said to me in College . . .

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I troll for hours with my bow mounted electric motor. It has the compass based autopilot so steering it is a breeze. I have two marine deep cycle batteries and they run the 55# thrust motor for hours. I have yet to run out of juice before I get tired of fishing. It's also dead quiet and no fumes.

Thx Rndn
I have a transom mount Minn Kota and had thoughts of upgrading for my present rig to a bow mount since the bow mounts are so easy to steer. But I found I liked the bow being uncluttered.

This new rig is going to be a tough model to jump out to the bow to release the electric into position anyway. Don't want to clutter up the new rig either but will probably get an electric anchor winch and the anchor itself will be clipped in between the hatch and the bow when stowed since there are no hatches up there, due to the cuddy being underneath.

So there is going to be a lot going on up there already. Will upgrade my 9.9 to an ELPT 20 hp at some point anyway.

And an electric is not going to get me back to port as well as that kicker will if the main motor conks out.

 

[j442w30]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Good choice on the Verado, you will love how quiet, smooth and powerful they are. The Digital Throttle and Shift and Smartcraft are awesome control systems. I walk past the assembly line that puts them together every day and I am always impressed with every aspect of their design.

If the 4 cylinder 200 hp is available I would go for that just because of the weight savings, I think the 200 should be more than adequate for your boat. The dealer is correct in that they will troll all day long, they just need a good hard run after. The Verado club is an excellent resource, the people over there are very knowledgeable and helpful.

Having a separate engine is a good idea for safety and to use as a dedicated trolling motor, and if its a 4 stroke you can tap into the main fuel tank, Maybe when you first get the boat and get the big engine broken in you can try trolling with it and see how you like it. If not then go ahead and mount the 9.9.

I would definitely get the trim tabs, they will make a big difference on a boat like yours.

Good luck with the purchase!

 

[Pursuit2150]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I tottally dis-agree with going to the MAX. I had a Pursuit 2150 WA, a 175 HP was "MORE" than needed.
3200rpm, at 23 MPH.Troll 1100RPM at 4 MPH.
Blew the carbon out on the way back to the dock.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

can't offer much opinion, but have to disagree with the comment that torque means nothing in marine applications... it means everything. hp is really the meaningless number, but it's what the manufacturers have brainwashed us with. but with that said, that boat is very light and the 4 cyl 200 sounds like plenty of power.

as for trolling with a 200, that's what us saltwater guys do all the time. but i don't want to discredit the 'trolling' motors. just have no idea what or why they're used for, other than moving a little bass boat around the honey hole.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Thx j.
I forgot about the 9.9 being able to tap off the main 52 gal tank. I'm so tired of dealing with 6.5 plastic gas tanks over the years.

A built in tank is one of my main reasons for the upgrade (plus a passenger console, a cuddy and the off shore ability of a bigger rig) after only one year on my present rig I know what I really miss. Since I don't want to keep upgrading each year, I'm going to skip a few years and go right for the 22 with the 200 Verado.

I can't see how the 200 6 cyl and it's added weight and cost will benefit me, that's why I posed the question to the forum. 200hp is 200hp I figure, but I don't want to listen to people saying to me later on "why didn't you get the 6 cyl as it's rated so much better than the 4 cyl and it was only $800 more"!

Those Verados are really sweet and I can't wait to turn the key the first time!

The Honda or Yamaha lines just doesn't move me like the Verado lines do.
This particular Starcraft model is kinda ugly to me anyway with it's one choice of a drab looking grey color with a black stripe. All those rivets and it's boxy look reminds me of a Sherman tank. But it's a trade off for the trailer ability of aluminum over the smooth lines of a much heavier fiberglass rig of the same size.

I need to dress up this tank with an Awesome looking shiny black Verado with those aggressive looking lines and cool graphics should help.

The only other brand that moves me like that currently is that BIG white Etec. Now the aesthetics of their design makes me stop in my tracks when I see one and drool, especially when I see twin Etecs on a big white center console rig. But alas, I don't want a two stroker.

And . . . the Verado will look good next to my 9.9 anyway

 

[QC]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

mattttttt . . . I have sold engines for almost 30 years. It is what I do for a living. I have sold massive 8000 bhp diesels that run at only 750 RPM, requiring massive amounts of torque (bhp = torque x RPM/5252) and I guarantee what I say is true. Propeller load curves are almost perfectly linear. There are no hills except for the moment of coming onto plane or massive swells.

The fact is that Auto manufacturers have brainwashed you into believing that torque is all that matters. In all fairness to good mathematicians everywhere both numbers matter. Without some torque you can make no horsepower, but without RPM torque is useless. Ya gotta have both. But the fact is that a 200 Verado 4 cyl with say 200 lb/ft. torque will be just as fast as a 200 bhp 6 cyl with say 300 lb/ft torque. Peak torque for 4 cycles is typically around 3000 RPM. But the propeller requires only say 100 lb/ft. torque (probably a lot less) to turn it at that RPM. And if someone wants to throw in gear ratio changes, then we are talking about swings of maybe 10% one way or the other. Not the 200 or 300 lb/ft. that these engines may make (I am not looking up any specs here, I am using these numbers for illustration only, but this is not order of magnitude stuff, I am close enough for this discussion).

Please trust me, I swear what I say is true. If any boat planes with the power that you have today, additional torque will make no difference whatsoever unless you add a LOT of weight or want to tow something that you didn't before . . . If your boat struggles to plane, then additional torque will make a difference and should be pursued. Horsepower is horsepower, and it is what determines top speed. Period!!!!!!!

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

qc- i easily admit- you know more than me. but i think it's all how it's presented. hp... a simple calculation of torque and rpms, right? but in any calculation, you can work it from different angles.

i guess my point is that too many uneducated buyers look strictly at hp. the boys love to compare their engines and it's all about what number is written on it. but the fact is, when you get to the larger boats, torque does matter. example, let's say i decide to repower my 33' bertram and i want to go with gas. do i throw in the crusader 6.0's rated at 375 hp or the more expensive 8.1's rated at 385 hp? the answer is easy. the other easy example is diesels...ain't going to find any gassers pushing a 40 plus. yet their are plenty of gas engines that make the same hp as the diesels.

in any event, agree with the technical items in your post. like i said, you have more experience than me.

 

[QC]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Yeah matttt you are making good points, but interestingly enough I might choose the 375s . . . Again if she'll plane, additional torque provided by the 385s will never be "experienced" unless you hammer the throttles. Top speed might in fact be damn close as the weight difference does matter. Also, the reason that most 40 footers plus have diesel is buckaroonies. If you can afford a new 40 footer, most will buy diesel. The fact is that a 375 6.0 rated at 4600 RPM and a 3126E Cat say rated 375 @ 3000 may in fact put the same torque to the prop shaft as the gasser will have a steeper reduction gear. A simple way to understand this is that torque doubles if you use a 2:1 ratio gear vs. a 1:1 ratio gear. Horsepower stays . . . the same

I don't mean to slam any oif you on this topic. It just needs clarity, and it happens to be a pet peave. Higher peak torque values mean the "ability" to make more power at low RPM, it does not change high RPM operation and it also doesn't matter if you do not hammer the throttles. If I run a 1000 lb/ft. peak torque engine at 1/2 power, I am only generating 500 lb/ft. . . . However with all other things being equal, if I have a 500 lb/ft engine in one boat and a 1000 lb/ft peak torque engine in another and the 500 just can't quite plane, then the 1000 lb/ft one definitely would . . .

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

can't offer much opinion, but have to disagree with the comment that torque means nothing in marine applications... it means everything. hp is really the meaningless number, but it's what the manufacturers have brainwashed us with. but with that said, that boat is very light and the 4 cyl 200 sounds like plenty of power.

As for trolling with a 200, that's what us saltwater guys do all the time. but i don't want to discredit the 'trolling' motors. just have no idea what or why they're used for, other than moving a little bass boat around the honey hole.

That's great to know that today's modern 200's can troll slow too. The dealers told me that, but I didn't believe them because the older big motors I used to troll with years ago would load right up and foul the plugs out.

I'd prefer not to have to use the 9.9 at all and free up another 87 lbs. If I don't need the 9.9, I'd rather sell it and use the cash for the trim tabs and a small radar set up.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I don't know that much about these new big outboards but, IMO, I know it's a lot of money, but I'd go with the 200hp 4cyl, it just seems to make more sense rather then going to a 200hp 6cyl, which I feel would give you more torque then you need considering your boats not that heavy, all at the expense of extra weight, & fuel usage. Unless you intend to really load the boat up all the time, which I doubt. Once on plane, the extra torque, & fuel usage, of a 6cyl is not needed. Plus, it's a fact the more cylinders you have, the more friction, so sometimes it's not an advantage. In fact your 4cyl maybe more nimble, and responsive at all speeds due to this. I base this on my observations of watching a peppy 4cyl car (geared right) weave thru traffic like a breeze, and a 6cyl car not very far behind him, but a laboring lazy 8cyl, would probably have trouble keeping up, but in the long run probably pass them both, if the run was long enough, but the other 2 cars would be gone outta sight by then, so at what expense? a lot of fuel, & and pushing that 8cyl till it's like a locomotive out of control,,,lol

By the way, regarding your other thread for a tow vehicle, knowing the boat your planning to get, I'd recommend nothing less then the Santa Fe with the 3.5 V6, & 5spd Auto. Also, remember they have a nice standard feature called Shiftronic, you can drop down into lower gears, & drive it like a stick shift, without a clutch! It has come in handy at times. Good Luck with everything, Mike

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Thx Mike the 200 4 cyl sounds like the way to go. And on the tow vehicle, I was never going less than a 6 cyl especially with a mid sized SUV but I thought they were all 4 wheel drives.

I guess it's just the AWD model that gives you all wheels and they don't have a 4 wheel drive choice like some Jeeps do where you pull a lever back or a button and it goes into 4 wheel drive . . . right?

 

[j442w30]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

All wheel drive is constantly engaged and sending power to all four wheels or splitting the torque between the front and rear axle depending on conditions. Some cars with AWD have a button that allows you to "lock" the AWD on but if you go too fast or after a certain amount of time it will revert to normal operation.

Four wheel drive gives you the option of 2wd, 4hi, 4low and neutral. I like 4wd because of the option of 4low for getting out of tough spots or pulling a boat out of the water.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I know there is a Hyundai SUV AWD but are the other 6 cyl models 4 wheel drive or are they just front wheel drive?
Thx

 

[DJ]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I know there is a Hyundai SUV AWD but are the other 6 cyl models 4 wheel drive or are they just front wheel drive?
Thx

Most makers offer a choice. Obviously, the AWD or 4WD is more expensive.

I wouldn't be towing that boat with a Hyundia, if it's the Sante Fe you're thinking of.

True the boat doesn't weigh all that much but I'll bet it will be pushing 4K# loaded and ready to go. You need a vehicle that is rated at 5K#, minimum.

You also need to make sure that the vehicle has a factory installed tow package. Tow packages consist (usually) of: Upsized radiator, aux. transmission cooler, power steering cooler, lower axle ratio and trailer wiring isolated from the main system.

You also need to remember that your boat is large. Large means wind resistance or frontal area. It takes horsepower to overcome wind resistance. You would be best off with a full size pick-up, SUV, or a mid size SUV with a V-8.

4WD or AWD is not mandatory but sure is nice. A requirement would be at least a limited slip rear differential.

 

[MikDee]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

I know there is a Hyundai SUV AWD but are the other 6 cyl models 4 wheel drive or are they just front wheel drive?
Thx

The Santa Fe was available either 2 WD or Auto. 4WD, meaning like it's competitors, the Ecape, Tribute, Mariner, triplets, and the Highlander, Equinox, Torrent, Vue, & Suzuki's XL7 quadruplets, they stay in 2 WD until needed then automatically shift into 4WD, not driver controlled. The Tucson is available 2WD, or AWD, and has an optional locking 4WD up to 20mph. As I said from the factory, all the Santa Fe's with the 2.7V6 have 4:56 gearing, don't know what gearing is for the optional 3.5V6? it's different though. My Tucson with the 2.7V6 has 4:19gearing, and tows my boat of about 2500lbs ok.

 

[Expidia]

Re: Opinions on power: 150, 200 or 200 6cyl ?

Most makers offer a choice. Obviously, the AWD or 4WD is more expensive.

I wouldn't be towing that boat with a Hyundai, if it's the Sante Fe you're thinking of.

True the boat doesn't weigh all that much but I'll bet it will be pushing 4K# loaded and ready to go. You need a vehicle that is rated at 5K#, minimum.

You also need to make sure that the vehicle has a factory installed tow package. Tow packages consist (usually) of: Up sized radiator, aux. transmission cooler, power steering cooler, lower axle ratio and trailer wiring isolated from the main system.

You also need to remember that your boat is large. Large means wind resistance or frontal area. It takes horsepower to overcome wind resistance. You would be best off with a full size pick-up, SUV, or a mid size SUV with a V-8.

4WD or AWD is not mandatory but sure is nice. A requirement would be at least a limited slip rear differential.

Expidia says: All good points DJ, when Mikdee showed me the pic of his SUV towing his boat the boat really overpowers the SUV. I was thinking when I looked at that set up that my upcoming boat's front looks like a "tank" due to the high cabin widows around the cuddy.

I have my boat overpowering my 9-5 SUV now, but I'm only towing 1000 lbs or so.

Many of my weekend trips are to Lake Champlain which is mostly highway but it's going through the Adirondack mountains and I picture the wind catching the boats high front design on the Starcraft and even with a 6 cyl it's going to struggle up those long mountainous stretches.

I was trying to stay mid sized to save on gas, but if the tow vehicle is struggling it's going to cost me "more" on gas and a mid sized SUV is going to get blown around along with the boat.

One of the drawbacks of this boats design is that since it has such a high cabin and is of light weight aluminum it can get blown around on the water more than it's fiberglass counterpart.

As you have pointed out, this design is also going to translate into the same drawback for it's tow ability and the larger the vehicle and horsepower the better.

I'll have my guy at the auction keep an eye out for an 03/04 SUV at the auction and have him call me when he sees a deal on something in the 4-5k # range. AWD are more costly, so I'd rather have one that I can switch to 4 wheel drive when needed.

I'll have to go back to having the dealer look for the Jeep or Ford lines they are both lower rated but that's why they are cheap to buy used.

A tow package would be a plus, but then again I don't want a used SUV that was heavily used for towing. I'd rather add what a need later on like a larger radiator or add a transmission cooler which items I could do myself if I see it's running hot.

I don't think fully loaded I'd be much over 3500 #'s anyway (it will be close, boat and motor about 2600 # plus gas 319 lbs and what ever a trailer weighs plus gear) so I think I could get by with something like an 8 cyl Jeep Cherokee even if it didn't come with a tow package.

A tow package tells me the used vehicle was used to pull a big boat, RV etc.
especially if it already has like 60k miles in just 3 or 4 years. I'm trying to stay around $5-10,000 for this vehicle (might have to drop back to an 02).

I'd rather put the extra dollars in the 150 to 200 hp upgrade, radar, trim tabs etc than thowing dollars at a 5 year old tow vehicle. The upgrade to 200 hp is going to run 3-4k alone.