got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I found TDC today with a piston stop and it was right on..well the pointer was a degree off...but its still where it needs to be...hopefully timing light came in today and I'll do the timing check tonight...after that I don't know. Can a trigger go off at the wrong time like that?? I don't see how that would be possible when the triggering is dependant on the shaft spinning and sensors crossing....what about a power pack?? I wouldn't think a coil would do unless it is holding the charge to long and the releasing it at the wrong time...hopefully I can isolate this to a cylinder or at least a bank...then we can say coil or powerpack hopefully. I'll repost later tonight if I get it done...thanks again...I can't wait to get this thing on the back of my ranger...with 120psi compression avg on all cylinders and when everything else clicks right I think it'll push my 330V fairly well...better than the ol' 1970 1150 anyways...and look better doing I think...I've always liked the "fat" look to the old V-4's. Thanks again.

 

[iwombat]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

A failed powerpack can send a signal to the coil at the wrong time.

 

[peacekeeper6]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

i have been following the problems but cant ermember if you had tried taking one plug out and trying to get it to fire, and then trying the other plugs in sequence?

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

yes I've tried the plugs and they were all firing last night...now the left bank is dead and it has the "newer" powerpack on it from CDI. But get this...found TDC this afternoon, got my timing light in and get this. With the engine in idle posistion and checking static timing...couldn't run the motor...put the timing light on #1....it is showing about 8 to 10 degrees after TDC...thats why it would run after I advanced the timing....I then advaced it nearly to my stop and it sat around 13 degrees total advance...what in the world?? How can that be?? I do see now why its backfiring...but what in the world would cause it to do this?? I just have trouble beleiving it could be the trigger...now iwombat gives a good point...the powerpack has to tell the coils what to do and when to do it...perhaps that left bank powerpack was failing and now it has...but that doesn't solve the problem of the right bank...thats where #1 is...and thats the cylinder I used to static time. Thats a different powerpack and I have good..steady...strong blue spark on both 1 and 3...its just at the wrong dern time...I'm at a loss here. I'm not a parts replacer and never have been but I'm wondering if I'm about to start..lol. That is also a steady 8 to 10 degrees after TDC...it doesn't jump around...maybe the trigger can do this?? THanks guys...your help is great..we just hadn't cracked it yet.

 

[peacekeeper6]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

i would say trigger base, but have you tried all the checks for the things? not the DVAs but the OHMS and the like? it sounds like something is miss aligned,

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

no I have not checked the resistances yet...I figured since I was getting spark I was good...I guess not. Thats what I would think...that something was misaligned but you can't misalign the trigger...and the flywheel key is not sheared and the flywheel is tightened and in the proper place. I know just bcause I'm getting spark doesn't mean anything and I should've checked it all out...but the backfire has got me puzzled and I've done everything that the manual says about backfiring. I'm going to try to check the resistances and all soon...I don't know if I'll get it tonight but maybe I will. What I don't get is its just like a distributor that is a tooth off....but thats not possible on this. I might try switching powerpacks around and seeing if that will make the other side fire again...if it doesn't follow the powerpack I bet it'll be the trigger. The guy I bought if from said that the cylinders a mech told him the cylinders were firing out of time and that it might be the trigger...lol, maybe he was right. Thanks again..I'll post an update soon.

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

okay didn't get all the tests done, its midnight but this is what I've got so far...sensor coil test...pass...between 38 and 42 ohms.....charge coil....seemed high...380 on both sides...says 250+-50...so according to this I'm high...could to much resistance in the stator be causing the problem??...charge coil...180-200....passed.....sensor coil...couldn't figure out what to do here with my meter...maybe someone will chime in here...talks about "s" and "5"...I understand five..but what about "s"?? says 0.3 or higher...what type of reading is this??....powerpack output....both over 200...passed, didn't do the coils...so far what do you think?? Will try to finish coils and do the sensor coil test tommorrow...used my DVA adaptor...mine thats nice. Thanks again!

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

bump..

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

okay, here is the update..sorry been at the state fair and had trouble with UPS getting me my parts. I replaced the timing base, stator, and rectifier..stator and rectifier because of getting under the flywheel. Got it all back together and torqued down to spec...cranked her up with muffs and wala...she still does the exact same thing. I just don't understand what could be causing this problem. I have tested everything in the ignition. Powerpacks and coils are the only part of the ignition that has not been replaced now. Someone said that a powerpack going bad can cause this. I have never been a parts replacer but I really want this 140 going. I did run a bit better before it died this time...a little smoother but still the same backfire and dies. It will sit there and run for a time...lets say 5 to 10 secs and sound like its missing on one cylinder and then back fire. It really labors when it does this like that one cylinder is firing out of time and then finally backfires and shuts the engine off. I can not seem to trace the cylinder because they all fire and the engine won't run long enough to try a light to see spark patterns. I know what the powerpack does and how it works but does it just get signal from the timing base?? Is it possible that the powerpacks still work and produce the right amount of voltage per my DVA and still fire at the wrong time?? Maybe something else internally going wrong. I have read that you should replace them in pairs. mine has a newer CDI and then the orginal. As stated earlier all will fire. And if you advance timing by hand the engine will smooth out and race and you have to kill it or it wants to run away. I'm not letting it run like this because I know it will end up being catestrophic on muffs. What do you guys think?? A coil either works or it doesn't...right?? I'm thinking powerpacks...I don't think anything mechanical could cause this?? Am I missing something?? I hope some of you gurus will chime in...as I'm really anxious to get back on the water, the lakes are around southern arkansas are going to get dropped in about a month and will be prime for largemouth...would rather have my new Johnson on than my ol' 1150. Thanks again. I

 

[peacekeeper6]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

the only thing i can possibly think is the firing order is off...some how....thats what it sounds like....like some of the wires coming from your (single?) CDI are crossed. If you magically come across something let us know i am really anxious to see what the problem is./

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

snake, I thought the same thing. I have checked my wiring at least 6 times...everytime cross referencing with the manual. Its all right. I don't know if you read the rest of the thread but I got to thinking. When I used my timing light on number one, that was when it was showing my timing as being off...off to the point that it would not run...it would back fire as stated before. Well that is also the same bank that the orginal powerpack is on...when I say original...I mean...it looks the part...and I still have all the "green" coils. They do all fire. I went ahead and ordered two CDI powerpacks tonight and will have them installed on wednesday night. As stated before the powerpacks checked out as per the manual...but I believe that is just output...maybe the signal inside isn't getting through it at the right time to allow the powerpack to charge the coil...I really hope its the powerpack. I got to thinking about reed valves and the such...but why would it run like a top when you advance the timing by hand?? If it were mechanical I would think it would have troubles all the time...not just when timing is in the idle posistion. I'm going to figure this out...I'm just running out of parts..lol. For those that don't know...this motor is new to me..I bought it and a boat/trailer a month ago...compression checks out great..actually after closely inspecting the powerhead its been rebuilt...the carbs have been rebuilt, lower unit has new oil in it. This was the mans first boat and I don't think he knew what he had...if I can get the ignition problem out of it I think it'll be great. I really don't mind replacing stuff though...I like to go out by myself at night alot...and I still have all the "green" ignition components on it...well had. Thanks again...any other suggestions are welcome. I'll post findings on wednesday afternoon. Thanks snake.

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

Okay, I'm about to the end of my rope...two new powerpacks and it still does it. Not quite as bad. It will run and keep running now. Just spits and sputters and backfires...not the big crashing backfire like before. Will not idle down either...its on a stand and I have no way to check rpm but it is way to hi and the lobes are closed on the carb...arm is in idle posistion. I checked timing at idle..or what should be idle and it was 6 degrees. The trigger is not hooked up to the throttle at this time as it will retard timing to the point of backfiring and not running. This is what I have replaced...stator, trigger, rectifier, both powerpacks...all CDI. It does still have the green coils. Can coils cause something like this?? I figured a coil either fired or it didn't. Can it have enough resistance to where it will fire but its delayed and causes the backfire?? This engine had the powerhead rebuilt from what i can tell. All new gaskets around on it and its painted black. Nothing else was painted so the powerhead had been off. Again engine has great compression. Could a reed valve cause this?? I would figure the valve if held open would cough out of the carb...not back fire and die. This is really aggrevating me. Surely someone has had something like this happen before and can maybe shed some light on the subject. New plugs by the way...77JC4's gapped .040. Only ignition component that hasn't been replaced are the coils...they should probably be replaced anyways with newer units. I do get fire to all cylinders. The backfire did seem to go away when I pulled the plug wire from the #4 cylinder. Of course it still ran rough. Anyone have an idea?? Thanks again!

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I just read a post and a light came on..I forgot to mention...EVERYTIME it backfires, or backfires and dies I get a large puff of smoke out of the exhaust..could it be that I need carb work?? This is a longshot but could I have a flooding problem?? Maybe the floats are out of adjusment and to much fuel is being dumped in and causing it idle high and missfire??? wouldn't think so...but I'm trying to cover all bases...thanks!

 

[M Strawn]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I would check the timing advance linkage very, very closely. Look for signs of the linkage having been "adjusted" with some pliers or similar tool. Check for missing parts or worn parts. Go here and look up your motor, then look at cylinder and crankcase section. Check anything related to spark or timing linkage or advance.

http://epc.brp.com/default.aspx?brands=ej&lang=E&dealerlocator=no

I had a 76 Johnson 40hp that was missing a rubber bump stop. On that motor it held the idle timing at a certain spot. Without it, the timing was way retarded at idle. My symptoms were the similar to yours. Just a thought.

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I was thinking the same thing as you...its like someone put the wrong linkage on there...its seems to be to long. and it retards the timing, when you advance the timing its fine...but runs away...we'll get this eventually. You know after all I've replaced it would be bad if they had everything so far out of wack that it caused this...we'll see. THanks, hope I get somemore ideas..you guys are great!!

 

[bgbass.1]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

Its very possible a fuel problem. but the backfiring it sounds like my pickup when it skipped time backfire like you read about. I will asmost bet its somthing stupid now. you went this far replace that coil they will do funny things.But the running away dosent make sense. It seems like timing still off.I feel for you putting all this cash in very fustrating

 

[iwombat]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I'd almost have to say that you've got the leads to the power packs reversed. Sounds like you might be firing 90-degrees off all the way around. If you're 90-degrees retarded, the motor can limp along like that if you fully advance the timing, but back off to the idle setting and you'll backfire.

Worth a look anyway.

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

I'm going to check the wiring one more time....I've checked it a few times and it was right...I did notice that the top carb was slightly open at the idle setting when the bottom was fully closed...I'm wondering now if maybe I have a link and sync problem...still doesn't explain the backfiring...I may go ahead and get the coils...I think I'll wait until I work on the carb and linkage tonight. Thanks again everyone...I'm sure its something simple... don't see how it could be a coil but anything is possible I supposed. I'll post again tonight after I work on the link and sync...if I get coils and still does it I don't know what I'll do...anyone live close to Arkansas? lol thanks again!

 

[Ranger 330V]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

iwombat..by the way...I have replaced the stator, powerpacks, timing base, rectifier...I don't see how the leads to the powerpacks could be reversed...I'm going to check wiring again tonight. One thing about it, everytime I replace something it still does it but does it ALOT better..lol. This thing will be nearly brand new by the time I finish..lol.

 

[iwombat]

Re: got her all rewired, and now she runs, but backfires and dies

Have you marked up the flywheel at 90-degree intervals and referenced the firing sequence of each coil with a timing light yet? I'd be doing that first thing. That'll solve the electrical question for good.