The deed is done!

[Skinnywater]

Re: The deed is done!

Where the liberal will try to be very evenhanded and so come up with a verdict that respect all parties,the conservative is more interested in his/her situation and will see that as the objective position.
In other words: Liberals try to find the common good and conservatives are more concerned about their own good.(please do forgive this generalisation).

I forgive the generalality.
"Common good" is also in the eye of the beholder.
Liberals seek it at the expense of all.
Conservatives seek it through empowering the individual.
Of course that's what you almost said, but not quite.

The "evenhanded" concept of a collective society that is the liberal utopia is hardly evenhanded, moral or respectful to the individual or conservative.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The deed is done!

"Liberals believe that defining right and wrong is the beginning of the problem, while conservatives believe that defining right and wrong is the beginning of the solution . . . "

Nope, thats not quite how it is. It is not the defining of right and wrong that is the problem, it is who is doing the deciding that is the problem. Big difference. I personally think overall our country, along with those other countries who share a similar level of freedom, have the best system for an individual to grow and thrive in. A person can grow and through hard work can achieve at least a decent life. That being said, what is great for us isn't necessarily great for other cultures, and that is the problem. Just because we love how we live does not qualify us to decide how other cultures and countries should live.

We are the world police, and like any police, we are hated until we are needed. We are also just a little too selective in our policing. Darfur is a horrible, horrible place where hundreds of thousands have been killed, but they are of no strategic use to us, so we don't bother. Do I think we need to run around and solve every problem? No. But we should not tell the world that we did what we did to give Iraq democracy and save the people from a brutal dictator and then turn our back on another country that is enduring the same thing on a much higher level.

We should just be honest in what we do. We did what we did in Iraq to attempt to gain greater control over the middle east, which means greater control over oil. Saddam, 9/11, all of that is side dressing to a strategic position in the world resources.

C'mon now, do you really believe that the administration sat in the white house listening to a country music song commemerating 9/11 with a tear in their eye, sobbing while saying "We'll avenge our dead, we'll get even"? Nope, they sat there and said "those damn rag heads just gave us a great opportunity to get a strategic placement of this country in the distribution of all that oil". They thought we could roll in, save Iraq, and the whole world would gush and say how great we are and the middle east would just love us because we got rid of Saddam and turned Iraq into the land of puppies and angel kisses. Well, we did get rid of Saddam, but where are the puppies?

And don't get all "JasonJ hates this country" on me. I love this country, and I gave 11 years for this country. Doesn't mean I am blind to reality. Disagreeing with the popular opinion does not make me any less patriotic...

Hopefully, now that Saddam is where he should be, Iraq will step up and take responsibility for the future of their country...

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: The deed is done!

Disagreeing with the popular opinion does not make me any less patriotic...

If the last election was any indication, you're not disagreeing with popular opinion. It's the others here are not in step with mainstream.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: The deed is done!

If the last election was any indication, you're not disagreeing with popular opinion. It's the others here are not in step with mainstream.

Seems to me the other day you were complaining about bond-o and here you are doing the same thing. So I guess you don't believe in what you say. Tell people not to do something, then you go ahead and do it.

What's the word I am looking for.... ?

Yeah, the video shows the deed is done!!

 

[QC]

Re: The deed is done!

it is who is doing the deciding that is the problem

You may scoff at this, but I believe that we need to recognize a higher authority precisely for this reason. I also believe that Islam, Judaism and Christianity (as well as most other religions and even philosophies) adhere to the same core list of rights and wrongs . . .

Just because we love how we live does not qualify us to decide how other cultures and countries should live

It does if they threaten to destroy how (and that) we live . . .

Darfur is a horrible, horrible place where hundreds of thousands have been killed, but they are of no strategic use to us

Or threat . . . you should actually think of "our interests" as it should be the basic tenet of all of our foreign policy. Our interests do in fact include our security . . .

But we should not tell the world that we did what we did to give Iraq democracy and save the people from a brutal dictator

This is selective memory at it's worst. Anyone who was anyone believed that Iraqi WMD was a threat. It is very convenient to be a Monday morning quarterback when you have the benefit of knowing the outcome . . . Commenting on the decision to invade Iraq while leaving the understood threat out of the equation is simply wrong.

"those damn rag heads just gave us a great opportunity to get a strategic placement of this country in the distribution of all that oil".

This is the type of cynicism about the US that causes people (not me) to proclaim that you hate this country. I will never believe that you hate this country, but believing that we are that evil is troubling. Ask yourself what resource(s) we were after in Somalia, Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, Grenada, WW2, WW1. Go ahead. Or is this the only time that we have made war simply for "control" of resources?

I gave 11 years for this country.

Thank you. I know you believe that it was time well spent . . .

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: The deed is done!

If the last election was any indication, you're not disagreeing with popular opinion. It's the others here are not in step with mainstream.

Seems to me the other day you were complaining about bond-o and here you are doing the same thing. So I guess you don't believe in what you say. Tell people not to do something, then you go ahead and do it.

What's the word I am looking for.... ?

Yeah, the video shows the deed is done!!

PM, I started to respond in similar sarcastic fashiion, but chose not too. I'll simply say that you're wrong. They're not the same.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: The deed is done!

PM, I started to respond in similar sarcastic fashiion, but chose not too. I'll simply say that you're wrong. They're not the same.

My remark was no more sarcastic then your remark you made to bondo.

I'm sure if the libs had their way, saddam would still be alive being tried at the Hague, it would last for years and in the end he'd die in prison, not being convicted of anything and without justice to those he brutalized, murderd and raped over the years.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The deed is done!

"This is selective memory at it's worst. Anyone who was anyone believed that Iraqi WMD was a threat. "

Not true. There was doubt right out of the gate by a lot of people in this country, including the politicians. I myself never believed, even for a fraction of a millisecond, that there were wmds of the level justifying a full scale invasion in that country. Now, to be fair, I am open to the possibility that there were wmds and they somehow managed to get out of the country despite our satellite surveilance, but thats not enough for war.

"It does if they threaten to destroy how (and that) we live . . ."

No, it doesn't. We have the right to defend our way of life, not project it onto others, big difference.

"Our interests do in fact include our security . ."

Security is part of strategy...

I would not say what I am saying is cynical. What you call cynical is what I call a possibility. Lord knows I am not saying things as solid fact, I say them as speculation, as a means for people to do some thinking. If what I say is wrong, then at least people did some thinking and some work to find out I am wrong or not wrong, not just towing the party line and parroting what everyone else who is like-minded says.

I can't believe no one has figured out what I am about. I am about people thinking, considering all possibilities, even the rediculous ones. It is easy to be a mindless automaton who lives by the words of Rush, Bush, Kerry, Gore, whoever. It is much more work to take available information and come up with your very own conclusions. Only considering information that agrees with you and dismissing all other information is a horrible level of unforgiveable ignorance (Not You QC, just those guilty of this crime).

 

[xtraham]

Re: The deed is done!

I know where your from and how you think
like everyone else here you have your own opinions which you are entitled too...........
but no matter what party is in power "I" will respect their judgement because I feel they do things in our best interest.........most of the time

but.......why did we go after Saddam after 911? I think it was the perfect opportunity for revenge of the failed attempt of the former GB, the sights should have been set on Osama........

did they really hang Saddam? we will never know.....

is Elvis really dead.........

yep I'm nuts.........

 

[12Footer]

Re: The deed is done!

did they really hang Saddam? we will never know.....

is Elvis really dead.........

yep I'm nuts.........

:} I needed a good gut-busting gaffaw this moring to get the smell of spent gunpower outta my sinuses! :}

 

[JasonJ]

Re: The deed is done!

I certainly hope he in fact is dead. The picture of him in the shroud with his head all boogered up from his neck being broken looked pretty authentic. I may not agree with us going in when we did, I still feel the world with one less Saddam is a better place...

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: The deed is done!

Not true. There was doubt right out of the gate by a lot of people in this country, including the politicians. I myself never believed, even for a fraction of a millisecond, that there were wmds of the level justifying a full scale invasion in that country. Now, to be fair, I am open to the possibility that there were wmds and they somehow managed to get out of the country despite our satellite surveilance, but thats not enough for war.

Like yourself Jason., I trust and rely on my own judgement after considering facts and circumstances.

There was far less doubt about WMD's and the action to invade Iraq than you remember.
Most in government, CIA, both administrations and political partys thought Saddam and his WMD's were a viable threat.
Although there were some reservations from a few, many lost those doubts when Colin Powell addressed the U.N..
However, we have learned since that the CIA made honest mistakes. And that the administration clearly embellished.
The embellishment is almost unforgivable and ultimately the root cause of anti Bush sentiment.
However it was a honest gamble given the info everyone "in the know" had at the time.

We have the right to defend our way of life, not project it onto others, big difference......Security is part of strategy...... What you call cynical is what I call a possibility...... It is easy to be a mindless automaton who lives by the words of Rush, Bush, Kerry, Gore, ................. Only considering information that agrees with you and dismissing all other information is a horrible level of unforgiveable ignorance

You aren't at such great odds here as you might think.

Saddam is dead and justifyably so.
We need to fix what we broke, come home defend our borders and culture, leave the UN, quit doing business with the enemy.....

 

[treedancer]

Re: The deed is done!

Quote Skinnywater

Saddam is dead and justifyably so.
We need to fix what we broke, come home defend our borders and culture, leave the UN, quit doing business with the enemy.....


Right on this one, but we should never forget the "embellishments".

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: The deed is done!

Interesting talk. "Embellishments". Hmmmm. Clearly most of the world (East West, Liberal Conservative) thought Sadam was a problem, and post 9/11, the type of problem that could get much worst. Most of the world's heads of state do not pay $25,000.00 to the families of homicide bombers for training their children to strap on explosives to blow up other children. Most of the worlds heads of state do not have an old jet for training proper hyjacking techniques. Most of the worlds heads of state do not invade their neighbors using poison gas causing hundreds of thousands of deaths. In a post 9/11 world people we elected, (yes Virgina Algore lost), had to decide how to proceed. The liberals and Dems also voted for the invasion of Iraq. Monday morning we now know there were mistakes, really? Mistakes during war? Oh No, that has never happend before it must be George Bush's fault!. Libs control most of the education machinery in this country, and most of the media. It is a wonder any conservatives even exist. They change our language and revise history on a regular basis, to further their political correctness. George Bush et al is not the problem, it is those who put their finger in the wind and go with the flow when it serves their purpose "I voted for it before I voted against it", (not the purpose of their country), and change their tune when the time is right to maximize their own personal political benifit from the Monday morning post event knowledge. Respectfully JR

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

I believe that the fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals is: Liberals believe that defining right and wrong is the beginning of the problem, while conservatives believe that defining right and wrong is the beginning of the solution . . . Chew on that a little. Comments requested.

Sounds like you're saying liberals do not attempt to distinguish right from wrong - but you're too intelligent to actually believe that. Unless maybe you define "liberal" as "having no concept of right & wrong."

I believe that defining the problem is the beginning of the solution; what does that make me?

 

[Kenneth Brown]

Re: The deed is done!

[My boat needs some gas, how would you feel if I came over to your house & siphoned, say, 20-30 gallons or so, & said that I was entitled because I need it & because I think that you are a barbarian...:}

That depends on if your asking for it or if your balls are big enough to take it. The US has balls that ARE big enough, now if the wussy's would just get out of the way and let the soldiers do their jobs.........

 

[QC]

Re: The deed is done!

Sounds like you're saying liberals do not attempt to distinguish right from wrong -

No. I can see how you came to that conclusion, but it is less simple than that. Defining right and wrong requires that someone proclaims someone or something as right (or wrong). It is the arrogance of a given that liberals resist, not necessarily the proclaimed right or wrong. In other words, liberals believe that confirming a right or a wrong requires that someone wins and someone else loses. This is what they find unacceptable. The concept of anyone's philosophy being a "winner" or a "loser" insures conflict. Without the defined right (or wrong), we have no conflict and hence peace. The goal is honorable, the method is wrong.

I don't believe that liberals (choose whatever label you like, try "holders of this philosophy") are bad or stupid, I just believe that many of their solutions are flawed.

 

[jtexas]

Re: The deed is done!

c'mon, kenneth, are you really the type to just take whatever you want from whoever is weaker than you?

 

[rogerwa]

Re: The deed is done!

Why is it that conservatives are always referred to as zombie walking robots that take orders from talk radio. I hate that. There are a lot of intelligent conservatives out there that can think for themselves. In fact, I believe more conservatives can articulate their opinion (their own) more conscisely without referring to putting down the opposing viewpoint with condescension and name calling.

I read a lot. I form my own opinions and not just from conservative sources. I have listened to the democratic positions, liberal sources, etc. Even when they are well formed arguments, they just don't agree with my viewpoint. i read Rolmops and PW and find they form their arguments well and I can understand their viewpoint. I just don't agree with it and believe the county would be in a bad place if they had their way.

I believe that makes me an Rush-made robot.

I believe the election that just took place is a good example of the sheeple of the country following the blistering agenda of the liberal media. They have conspired with the democratic party to win at all costs.

The vast majority of people out there are clueless to the daily news of the political and foreign issues. They see what they see on TV and it influences them. That is what scares me.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: The deed is done!

Monday morning we now know there were mistakes, really? Mistakes during war? Oh No, that has never happend before it must be George Bush's fault!.

Most of your post James includes facts that are sufficient enough for you to think the way you do. Not a thing I've written in this thread is contrary to conservative ideaology.
It's important to consider the "embellishments" and to not forget them.
We are entitled to have accurate facts before we go to war. If war needs a "sell job" than it probably isn't worth fighting.
We all, conservative or liberal, deserve better than embellishments.

It's proper for me to hold the administration responsible for mistakes and miscalculations. I believe it's irresponsible to ignore "embellishments", mistakes and miscalculations.
At the very least it isn't an honest position during debate and at worst, it makes for difficult warfare and a longer list of enemys.