Need to sleep soundly this winter.

[4Winns2]

Bought my 90' Four Winns Freedom 195 with a 4.3 OMC Cobra a couple of years ago. It came with a cracked block from poor winterizing by the previous owner. I figured she was ready for a new engine at her age any ways so I didn't mind the 2.7k price tag on the remanufatured block with labor.

After the first season, the mechanic who flipped the engines came over and helped me winterize her. He had the Camco setup and a better oil extraction unit than I and everything was fine when I fired her up that following spring. Of course, I bought all of the materials for the job including 5 gallons of RV A/F. I recall my engine sucking up that whole five gallons through that Camco unit when he was here. Since he isn't here this year, it was time for me to swing my fairly adept mechanical apptitude into gear.

While winterizing her yesterday she only took a little over three gallons so I'm a little worried. I pulled all four hoses of the thermostat housing and backfilled each one to the top of each hose with A/F after draining the risers and the block. I checked one side of the block by opening the petcock and A/F came out. The port side is tough to get to so I didn't get to that one. All seemed fine on my maiden voyage of winterizing but something tells me somethings wrong as I look at the two extra gallons of A/F sitting in the garage next to her. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated gang. My wife won't let me buy another engine next spring so I've got to have this right. I know most out there are a little put off by winterizing questions so I'll say I'm sorry now for another one. Thanks in advance for any help offered.

 

[tommays]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Did you drain the block AND manfiold/risers and probe EACH hole for junk BEFORE useing the anti-freeze?

thats at least 4 drains PLUS the large water pump hose AND the P/S cooler


Tommays

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Did you warm it up good to let the thermostat open up.

I'm new to this too and some research on my part has led me to beleive the "run it into the engine method" wouldn't let me sleep at night.

My manual for the 3.0 merc stated to pop the thermo and fill everything up. I actually left all the drains open until I saw it coming out and then closed them. Corked the bilge and sucked up the excess with a shop vac. I use the green stuff for added corrosion protection. Probably just let the pink stuff go as it's in about 35 different foods we all eat? Still doesn't sit with some though? I left the stern up and when I was finished dropped it level and some leaked out there as well so be sure to be ready. That's it. No mess with running the engine hoping I filled everything up. My 3.0L Merc took 2 gallons.

I am a newbie so if this sounds out of whack, let us know?

 

[Speakrdude]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I think you guys are missing the point. I read where a lot of guys simply drain the water out, period.. Air will not freeze. Simply open all your drains, 2 for the 4 cyc's, 4 for the v-8's. Let all the water drain out of the block and the man's. Yes use a small screw driver to unplug any corrosion, After the water has all drained out. Pour AntiFreeze, (not the pink stuff for engine blocks) into the manifolds front hoses untill it comes out of the drain hole, replace plug, put a little more in. Same with the block, pour antifreeze in the big hose going to the recir. water pump. untill it comes out of the block drain holes, one at a time. Plug each one, put in a little more, Thats it. I don't know why people want to fill the block all the way to top unless maybe to prevent corrosion. On engines that have a crank or pulley driven Raw water pump, you may either want to drain and leave open or simply flush with atifreeze. This obviously doesnt cover Heat exchangers for oil, or Fresh water systems.

Just my $.02 worth ($.0125 after taxes)
Jim

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I think you guys are missing the point. I read where a lot of guys simply drain the water out, period.. Air will not freeze. Simply open all your drains, 2 for the 4 cyc's, 4 for the v-8's. Let all the water drain out of the block and the man's. Yes use a small screw driver to unplug any corrosion, After the water has all drained out. Pour AntiFreeze, (not the pink stuff for engine blocks) into the manifolds front hoses untill it comes out of the drain hole, replace plug, put a little more in. Same with the block, pour antifreeze in the big hose going to the recir. water pump. untill it comes out of the block drain holes, one at a time. Plug each one, put in a little more, Thats it. I don't know why people want to fill the block all the way to top unless maybe to prevent corrosion. On engines that have a crank or pulley driven Raw water pump, you may either want to drain and leave open or simply flush with atifreeze. This obviously doesnt cover Heat exchangers for oil, or Fresh water systems.

Just my $.02 worth ($.0125 after taxes)
Jim

As an added thought here, I had bought the thermostat gasket with the intention of having to pull it to pour A/F. I researched further and found marine techs online saying you don't need to pull the thermostat out: just back fill the four lines that go into the thermostat housing which is what I did. Let me step this for you quickly:

1. warmed up the engine on muffs
2. changed oil and filter
3. fogged the carb (probably a half can's worth) until she blew white smoke.
4. drained (and poked with wire to losen) both petcocks on the manifold and one on each riser.
4. pulled all four hoses at the therostat housing in this order
A.) the line that comes from the water pump in the outdrive. On my boat this hose is inline with my power steering cooler so I don't have to put A/F in thier separtely- -good thing1
B.) pulled both riser hoses off and filled until it started coming out the petcock and then I tigtened it and put more in until full
C.) pulled the largest of the hoses (raw water pump hose) off the thermostat housing and filled it (about 2 gallons) all the way until it wouldn't take any more.
D.) put all hoses back on and tightened them and said a little prayer at the end.
6.) Changed outdrive lub and did a little grease and oil on it all and that was it.

My wonder is. Is it really necessary to pull the thermostat out to get A/F to the block? It's a pain and most that I've read who are marine techs say you don't have to. Any thoughts?

 

[tommays]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I am NOT seeing you type you pulled BOTH block drains ?


Tommays

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I checked one side of the block by opening the petcock and A/F came out. The port side is tough to get to so I didn't get to that one.

Yep (tommays right)....SO darn much easier to sleep when you drain the whole block. That sucking up idea sucks anyway too unless you are a Pro, and done it a zillion times. Then yank the Stat and fill up the block if ya want. Mine takes 2 to 3 gallons if I do AF. Pour some in the manifolds (through the hoses) so their at least half full too. The idea of pouring AF in without yanking the Stat will get you nowhere fast. Just what the heck do you think DOES NOT OPEN until warm? Sure, some will work its way into the block through the pump, but when you pull the Stat housing, drain the block (yep...BOTH sides) and mans, then fill up through the intake manifold, you know you can sleep well after that

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I checked one side of the block by opening the petcock and A/F came out. The port side is tough to get to so I didn't get to that one.

Yep (tommays right)....SO darn much easier to sleep when you drain the whole block. That sucking up idea sucks anyway too unless you are a Pro, and done it a zillion times. Then yank the Stat and fill up the block if ya want. Mine takes 2 to 3 gallons if I do AF. Pour some in the manifolds (through the hoses) so their at least half full too. The idea of pouring AF in without yanking the Stat will get you nowhere fast. Just what the heck do you think DOES NOT OPEN until warm? Sure, some will work its way into the block through the pump, but when you pull the Stat housing, drain the block (yep...BOTH sides) and mans, then fill up through the intake manifold, you know you can sleep well after that

My apologies, I may have been unclear in my effort to keep my explanation concise. I did in fact drain both sides of the block. What I didn't check, and I will tomorrow, is if any A/F came out the port side of the block after I backfilled the raw water/big hose with A/F. I did check it on the starboard side of the block and she did drip out A/F when I opened the petcock a little. It appears you are a fan of pulling out the thermostat. And, you're saying that a cold thermostat won't allow A/F to go down into the block and fill it completly? Thanks for your input, it's been helpful as I contemplate my next move here to ensure a restful winter.

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I checked one side of the block by opening the petcock and A/F came out. The port side is tough to get to so I didn't get to that one.

Yep (tommays right)....SO darn much easier to sleep when you drain the whole block. That sucking up idea sucks anyway too unless you are a Pro, and done it a zillion times. Then yank the Stat and fill up the block if ya want. Mine takes 2 to 3 gallons if I do AF. Pour some in the manifolds (through the hoses) so their at least half full too. The idea of pouring AF in without yanking the Stat will get you nowhere fast. Just what the heck do you think DOES NOT OPEN until warm? Sure, some will work its way into the block through the pump, but when you pull the Stat housing, drain the block (yep...BOTH sides) and mans, then fill up through the intake manifold, you know you can sleep well after that

I should have added the URL for the article referencing the need not to pull the thermostat:

http://www.brownsmarina.com/tech-winter-inboard.html

FYI: The tech in this article is rather adamant about not pulling the thermostat as he states below:

"NOTE: There is absolutely no need to remove the thermostat housing to winterize your motor. The guy who told you this doesn't know what he's talking about. Are we clear on this?"

 

[boatgrunt]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

I think you guys are missing the point. I read where a lot of guys simply drain the water out, period.. Air will not freeze. Simply open all your drains, 2 for the 4 cyc's, 4 for the v-8's.[/quote]

I have a '94 5.7. It only has 2 drains on the block, not f. Were you counting the manifold drains Speakrdude?

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Heres the scoop. Seems you boat in New York, so I GUESS salt water (its the little things here that we need to know too). Anyway. No you don't need to pull the Stat (I also mean the whole damn housing) as it should fill the block without pulling it. But there are MANY different housings with way too many hoses on boats (Merc to be sure), and if you don't know what goes where (not saying you don't-but this is a generic forum-LOTS of other people read these posts, and do the wrong thing). And I've read here people filling the the wrong hose, or plug, and filling up the damn crankcase. Plus all the rust and scale that can and will plug a lot of passages up. Ones ya just can't see. But I digress..
Heres a pic of my Stat housing after less than 20 hours and 6 weeks in the salt. AND I flush with fresh, and Saltaway after every use. Hard to really tell in the pic, but that stat and housing were NEW and SHINY in the spring. It's 2 easy bolts on mine to pull. I do it yearly. I get that snap ring out of there, and clean and check the stat. Then go over the Stat housing . That cast iron will rust out just like the Manifolds. Seems no one seems to remember that the Stat housing is one of many parts in the cooling system. And right there in the Stat housing are 3 dis-similar metals...brass, steel, and cast iron. And doing it yearly means that the bolts, snap ring, etc, won't corrode into a solid mess, requiring a new housing, which runs into BIG bucks, IF I can even find them anymore (older motor housing). And I won't twist a bolt off in the manifold, which will really have ya tossing wrenches. THATS why I pull the Stat housing. It MY way of doing maintenance. When its off, and the block and Man's drained, I toss in the AF, right through that big old hole in the manifold, right to the top. I know its full, no guessing. And if it aint still at the top come spring, I can EASILY tell I have a bit of a problem. Then I know I need to bring out a couple sets of wrenches...one set to toss at something in frustration, others to wrench. Aint been towed in in 45 years, so I'll continue to do it my way. Preventive maintenance REALLY cuts done on regular maintenance. Cost of pulling the Stat housing is time of 2 minutes, and a 2 dollar gasket.........

 

[Scaaty]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

NOTE: There is absolutely no need to remove the thermostat housing to winterize your motor. The guy who told you this doesn't know what he's talking about. Are we clear on this?

Bet he was in diapers when I was on the water learning things the hard (headed) way.
Heres two pix of my last Stat Housing. Top looks fine. Took it off, tapped the bottom a few times, and got a dull thud. Tapped a little harder with a ball peen, and the second pic is the result. Do as you wish, but I will continue to do what I know from expierence...

 

[mkpj1]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Scaaty,

Thanks for the info. Been the hard headed way myself several times but hey, ....practice makes perfect. Just think, I mess this up and I can practice engine building.

Question for you that probably should be put into a new thread but I don't want too.

I have this new Merc 3.0L that when I pulled the stat housing the last owner permatexed in one of the housing bolts. Obiviously torqued it off the last time he took it off? I've taken out a many of these in old auto engines but thought I would ask if you have any "special" wisdom here?

 

[Speakrdude]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Yes, I was including the Manifold drains in the 4 drains.

My Risers do not have seperate drains. I think I read here somewhere that someones did. Strange. My risers, being on top of the man's, drain down into the manifolds and out to the rubber couplers down to the Y tube.
I suppose someother brand (besides Volvo) could be different. I also, do not remove the thermostat.

On my 2750 project boat, I am now Half Fresh water cooled. My manifolds are still Raw water. Don S. said this model Volvo probably would not work trying to be Full FWC, and he was right.

However I have another "project" boat, same year, same model that is still factory Raw water cooled.

I'm not sure, other than the small price, why anyone would ever go Raw Water cooled.

Jim

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

NOTE: There is absolutely no need to remove the thermostat housing to winterize your motor. The guy who told you this doesn't know what he's talking about. Are we clear on this?

Bet he was in diapers when I was on the water learning things the hard (headed) way.
Heres two pix of my last Stat Housing. Top looks fine. Took it off, tapped the bottom a few times, and got a dull thud. Tapped a little harder with a ball peen, and the second pic is the result. Do as you wish, but I will continue to do what I know from expierence...

Scaaty:

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Quote: Heres the scoop. Seems you boat in New York, so I GUESS salt water (its the little things here that we need to know too).

Sorry, mentioning the water I boat in would have been helpful. I'm in upstate NY in the fresh water of the Finger Lakes (specifically, Skaneateles Lake).

Quote: Anyway. No you don't need to pull the Stat (I also mean the whole damn housing) as it should fill the block without pulling it.

I know that it's not that big of a job to pull it but if filling with A/F through the hose will work efficiently then that's what I wanted to know. I have no problem taking time to take the extra/right step but if it's a redundant step.... The thermo was new when I put this reman'd engine two seasons ago so I think I can safely go another before changing it (I need to keep my piece wood for knocking handy when talking about my boat- -I believe it can hear me). Thanks.

Quote: But there are MANY different housings with way too many hoses on boats (Merc to be sure), and if you don't know what goes where (not saying you don't-but this is a generic forum-LOTS of other people read these posts, and do the wrong thing). And I've read here people filling the the wrong hose, or plug, and filling up the damn crankcase. Plus all the rust and scale that can and will plug a lot of passages up. Ones ya just can't see. But I digress..

I agree that it may confuse the mechanically inept but I grew up around engines (father is tool and die maker and brother is auto mechanic) and feel pretty confident that I can follow a service manual. However, the Selco manual I have is real poor at winterizing procedures when it comes to draining and filling an engine with A/F. In fact, I don't think it was even mentioned so may be it's not suggested, although the rest of the boat using community would think otherwise.

Quote: Heres a pic of my Stat housing after less than 20 hours and 6 weeks in the salt. AND I flush with fresh, and Saltaway after every use. Hard to really tell in the pic, but that stat and housing were NEW and SHINY in the spring. It's 2 easy bolts on mine to pull. I do it yearly. I get that snap ring out of there, and clean and check the stat. Then go over the Stat housing . That cast iron will rust out just like the Manifolds. Seems no one seems to remember that the Stat housing is one of many parts in the cooling system. And right there in the Stat housing are 3 dis-similar metals...brass, steel, and cast iron. And doing it yearly means that the bolts, snap ring, etc, won't corrode into a solid mess, requiring a new housing, which runs into BIG bucks, IF I can even find them anymore (older motor housing). And I won't twist a bolt off in the manifold, which will really have ya tossing wrenches.

I see your point. More importantly I see that with salt water attacking the boat and engine, it's a whole different world than us fresh water boaters.

Quote: THATS why I pull the Stat housing. It MY way of doing maintenance. When its off, and the block and Man's drained, I toss in the AF, right through that big old hole in the manifold, right to the top. I know its full, no guessing. And if it aint still at the top come spring, I can EASILY tell I have a bit of a problem. Then I know I need to bring out a couple sets of wrenches...one set to toss at something in frustration, others to wrench.

I think I would just go buy a half case of beer and drink myself silly if I found such a probem in the spring.

Quote: Aint been towed in in 45 years, so I'll continue to do it my way. Preventive maintenance REALLY cuts done on regular maintenance. Cost of pulling the Stat housing is time of 2 minutes, and a 2 dollar gasket.........

Talked with a guy today on a different forum (boatered.com) and he was telling me that he has to check and change his thermo frequently because the salt will make it stick if he doesn't.


Thanks for your input Scaaty. A pleasant weekend to you and the family.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Quote: Heres the scoop. Seems you boat in New York, so I GUESS salt water (its the little things here that we need to know too).

Sorry, mentioning the water I boat in would have been helpful. I'm in upstate NY in the fresh water of the Finger Lakes (specifically, Skaneateles Lake)

Ayuh,.........

Even though Syracuse is known as "Salt City",..........
There's No Saltwater for Boating within a Couple Hunderd Miles.................d

How's the Snow down that way today,..??..??.......
Not even a Flake up here in Watertown...........d

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

Quote: Heres the scoop. Seems you boat in New York, so I GUESS salt water (its the little things here that we need to know too).

Sorry, mentioning the water I boat in would have been helpful. I'm in upstate NY in the fresh water of the Finger Lakes (specifically, Skaneateles Lake)

Ayuh,.........

Even though Syracuse is known as "Salt City",..........
There's No Saltwater for Boating within a Couple Hunderd Miles.................d

How's the Snow down that way today,..??..??.......
Not even a Flake up here in Watertown...........d

We got a dusting last night but nothing measurable so far. And, so far will only last so long, as you know.

Put the boat in the garage yesterday and after winterizing and pulled that damn thing called a snowblower. Brrrrrrrrrrrh, not ready for this winter yet!

Where do you boat up your way? I've been out on Ontario many, many times. Last time in your neighborhood was a few years back in Sackett's Harbor with my little boat- -did some bouncing around on two footers out in the lake so I stayed in the harbor most of the day. Doesn't do much for the beer if it's all foam.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

As My location says,......
Chaumont River, Chaumont Ny.....

I live just outside Watertown, at exit 47, I-81,.....
But,... Last year I bought 2 houses on the Chaumont River,.....In the Village.......
I always launched from Sackets Harbor up until then,....
I run from Cape Vincent to Sandy Pond from either launch,......
And,.....
Ayuh,........ It gets Mighty Ruff out there on Our Little Pond..............

 

[4Winns2]

Re: Need to sleep soundly this winter.

As My location says,......
Chaumont River, Chaumont Ny.....

I live just outside Watertown, at exit 47, I-81,.....
But,... Last year I bought 2 houses on the Chaumont River,.....In the Village.......
I always launched from Sackets Harbor up until then,....
I run from Cape Vincent to Sandy Pond from either launch,......
And,.....
Ayuh,........ It gets Mighty Ruff out there on Our Little Pond..............

I'll pardon us to the members of this forum for our little upstate NY conversation. I guess there would be an IM or e-mail functionality on the forum here but haven't found it yet being kind of new here.

Spent a lot of time on Sandy Pond over the years. I mated for a Capt out out of Port Ontario for a summer or two way back when; man, 15 hours a day, 7 days a week for 3 months: I was tired.

I know about where you are off of 81. Usually, I only go as far as the salmon captial of the northeast, Pulaski and exit there to go to my parents place in Redfield on the Salmon River Resovoir.

Well, we're on a boating forum after all so let me ask what you have for a rig?