Torture

[POINTER94]

Re: Torture

Hey rodbolt try reading up on the Kennedy legacy since his to re is the rule of the day.

We won the wars because we were willing to sacrifice as much or more than our enemies. Our committment to victory and our ability to use our industry to overwhelm them, while using our technology to surpass the enemy in most areas were also key. The Japaneese would still be death marching our soldiers if we hadn't dropped the bomb. Check your his to re and see that the Japaneese civilian population were armed and ready to fight to the last to maintain their homeland.

But if you check your his to re you will see that Ghengis Kahn, the Romans, the Trojans, the Moors, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, even our buddy Saddam used torture to maintain their power. It has worked consistantly over history.

Can someone point to an enemy that didn't torture Americans? There is no moral superiority in war. Just superiority. Moral superiority lies in peace.

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

Moral superiority lies in peace.

And peace relies on superior fire power, superior intel, and being willing.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Torture

If war isn't hell, there will be no deterance to starting one. A clean war solves nothing.

 

[woodrat]

Re: Torture

"Ghengis Kahn, the Romans, the Trojans, the Moors, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, even our buddy Saddam used torture to maintain their power. It has worked consistantly over history."

What a great set of examples to pull up for why torture is OK...Gosh, if it worked for them, then surely we should use it too!

Can we just stop with the BS then about how we Americans are different and better? If we can sit here in the comfort of our living rooms and chat online about how it should be OK to torture someone that the government says they SUSPECT of terrorist connections while over in another thread we chat away about how we don't need the right of habeus corpus around for the next few generations, ( after it has been around as a central legal concept of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta ) then we are truly as bad as any other empire that ever existed. Maybe worse, because we do it from the comfort of our own living rooms.

We send our military off to fight, supposedly to protect a way of life and a set of standards that we don't even care about !

 

[Boomyal]

Re: Torture

Why do we still listen to the guilt ridden, whining Democrats. I thought that lesson was learned after Neville Chamberlain. We brought the North Vietnamese to their knees during the Tet Offensive but the whining liberals turned it in to a Communist victory.

I don't believe in outright physical torture but I sure as heII hope that the people in power do not listen to the likes of txswiener.

Read the lesson and remember it well. America has been a good country. It's made some bad arrangements, it's made some mistakes, but these people (libs) do not like this country. They want to make it into something that would never have stood the test of time.

For whatever reason they are weak in spirit and it was not their spirit that tore this country from the grip of England. It was not their spirit that has kept the world from being subjugated by numerous despots thru out our history.

The same hue and cry was heard from the likes of txsweiner at the outset of WWII and if they had had their way we would have been speaking German today.

D'ya'll and your grandchildren want to start speaking Arabic?

Get a ******* backbone!

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

If war isn't hell, there will be no deterance to starting one. A clean war solves nothing.

And that just might be the rub.

For the last 30+ years all of our wars have been clean, and in most cases with spectacular results.

When we went into Iraq the first time we were bombarded by the media to expect 10's of thousands of casualties... it was a walk over, casualties were hardly up to what you would see for training, same for Panama, Grenada.

Those wars were for quick and easily met goals, nothing like what we are trying to do today in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I think the armchair Generals on this board are victims of the "instant gratification syndrom" and have no idea of what real combat losses are... or for that matter, what real war is.

They whine about and condemn "non combatant civilian casualties" when they have no idea of how bad it could be. (check your history books about Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima. )

That is war people, what we are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq is "nation building" Whether we will be successful probably relies on these same Armchair Generals...... God help us all.

 

[Firestar]

Re: Torture

Is it considered torture for a small female soldier to have one kneel in front of her at the end of a dog leash anymore?

 

[QC]

Re: Torture

Is it considered torture for a small female soldier to have one kneel in front of her at the end of a dog leash anymore?

Did you see her? :% I'm pretty sure it always was torture . . .

 

[crunch]

Re: Torture

Is it considered torture for a small female soldier to have one kneel in front of her at the end of a dog leash anymore?

We all know what torture really is, and what the US is doing doesn't even come close. (look in your history books about the techniques used by the Nazis, Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, etc. )... don't even get me started on the currant enemy.

I suppose you all would think it terribly un-PC to wrap one of these terrorists in a freshly killed Hog skin and then threaten to kill him by shoving a Kielbasa down his throat?.

Psychological pressure is not torture, nor is physical discomfort short of physical harm... they are just tools to maybe save your life... or your children.

 

[Firestar]

Re: Torture

Is it considered torture for a small female soldier to have one kneel in front of her at the end of a dog leash anymore?

Did you see her? :% I'm pretty sure it always was torture . . .

I'll lay odds that there are some guys that would love to swap places with that prisoner.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Torture

"Ghengis Kahn, the Romans, the Trojans, the Moors, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, even our buddy Saddam used torture to maintain their power. It has worked consistantly over history."

What a great set of examples to pull up for why torture is OK...Gosh, if it worked for them, then surely we should use it too!

Can we just stop with the BS then about how we Americans are different and better? If we can sit here in the comfort of our living rooms and chat online about how it should be OK to torture someone that the government says they SUSPECT of terrorist connections while over in another thread we chat away about how we don't need the right of habeus corpus around for the next few generations, ( after it has been around as a central legal concept of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta ) then we are truly as bad as any other empire that ever existed. Maybe worse, because we do it from the comfort of our own living rooms.

We send our military off to fight, supposedly to protect a way of life and a set of standards that we don't even care about !

Please tell me, how do we get information out of these people? Can't lock them up at Gitmo, correct? Can't play loud music or make the room cold. Can't use sleep deprivation, right? Give me an answer that will produce results. Or as the Dems usually do, complain about it all without an alternative answer. Tell me, how do we get the info? (Besides stand up for their "rights")

 

[Speedwagon]

Re: Torture

The same hue and cry was heard from the likes of txsweiner at the outset of WWII and if they had had their way we would have been speaking German today.

D'ya'll and your grandchildren want to start speaking Arabic?

Get a ******* backbone!

If I recall my history lessons correctly... the US citizens, on the whole, didn't want us involved in WW2 at all. The good ole President was trying to get us involved, because he knew it was only a matter of time. It took the Japanese bombing the crap out of us to make people wake up. So yea, we were pretty near speaking German today(even if they hadn't invaded us, they would have controlled Europe).

I think it's kind of pathetic that most of the country(or what seemed like most) at the time, decided "it wasn't our problem, let Europe fight their own battle." And now a lot of countries are doing the same thing to us, with the war on terror.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Torture

When it all boils down,, the losing side will do whatever it takes to win,,,,,,,laws or no laws,,,, survival will decide who lives and dies. The instinct to stay alive is more empowering than anything......Torture just brings out that strong will to survive. Either talk and forfiet being tortured or keep your mouth shut and endure the torture for what and who you are representing.

These laws make about as much sense as having laws denoting what is allowed in street/bar fighting. such as gouging the eyes, biting, no punching the pretty face,,,etc.

 

[i386]

Re: Torture

If in fact torturing people gives up information that saves Americal lives it's hard to argue against it. There's a lot of people a lot smarter than me that say a tortured person will say whatever they think will save their life so it's really not that effective. I don't know.

If someone kidnapped a family member and locked them away somewhere, I would support torturing them. Hell, I would do it myself.



But consider this. There was a time when we prosecuted and convicted people of war crimes when the same tactics were used on us. When we do it, it's called doing whatever it takes. When the enemy does it, it's a crime.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: Torture

This type of thread is usually a read only for me………………………..but on this one I’ll add my .02 cents worth.
We are at war. We are fighting an enemy that has no moral code. To believe taking up whatever measures necessary to defeat them “lowers” us to their standard seems absurd to me. To retain those standards or morals after defeating the enemy would just be.............well.............. wrong………………………
It seems to me if we wish to “stand the moral ground" we had better be ready to burry a lot more of our own than may need be. How many additional lives are you willing to give up to stand your moral high ground?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Torture

wow all the above referenced countries used torture and toltarian rule, all have 1 thing in common, all ceased to exist.
that to me shows it did not work.
as far as german speaking it would not have happened here in the US,
Europe maybe.
had Hitler not declared war on the US in the late dec 41 early jan 42 time frame we would not have entered WWII in Europe for at least another year.
congress autherized FDR to declare war with Japan in dec of 41 and specifically excluded war in Europe.
Hitler declared war on the US and made it a moot point.
what we are in now is a toy test and a regime change,
war is where you attack with overwhelmingly superior forces with overwhelming firepower and an objective.
the current conflict has none of the 3.

while the victory in asia and europe in WWII was assured from the start and US casualties were staggering I think the total was about 8% or so of all allied casualties.
however the US was the main supplier of weapons,machinery and OIL.
which is why Yamamoto was almost beheaded for treason.
he had toured the US and had been educated in the US and tried to tell the japanese high command the folly of attacking the US.

the japanese high command thought he was lying about the US mineral and labor resouces.
Hitler was crazy for declaring war on the USA and even crazier for opening a front with Russia.
when Hitler broke the non-aggresion pact with Russia it sealed his fate.

but yes all the above listed countries and tin horn dictators sponsered torture, all are gone.
Great examples.

its time to either win in Iraq or get the heck out and let them settle it.
the only way to win will be an additional 200,000 coalition troops and a couple billion more in equipment or we stay the course and this conflict will continue for 20 more years.
ask the french they did the exact same thing in vietnam,just before we did.
last I looked Bush had about 20 family memebers of military age,if the war was so noble how come they aint in it ?

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Torture

Please read my post again. I never said I agree with they types of torture that were meaded out by the list of tyrants. I said that they work. The Roman Empire lasted how long? Gemany succeeded by fear and torture, and lost because of arrogance and ambition. If we had waited a year to enter the war, Europe would have been lost. Japan attacked Pearl without the consent of the Nazi's. Their relationship was one of mutual benefit, not a coordinated effort even though their pact indicated they would work in a coordinated fashion. Germany was essentially using Japan to beat on Russia until they decided to attack. But please tell me again how torture doesn't work.

Meanwhile there are those who think we are torturing underwear and paper. And therefor we should run and hide. Sad. Demonizing our own troops to reach a political end. Continue your search of history and you will see more men were lost during the TET offensive than during this entire war. Vote for the war then run away. This is why some cannot be trusted with national security. War is hell, people die, stuff gets busted, what exactly did they think they were voting for?

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Torture

"Ghengis Kahn, the Romans, the Trojans, the Moors, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, even our buddy Saddam used torture to maintain their power. It has worked consistantly over history."

What a great set of examples to pull up for why torture is OK...Gosh, if it worked for them, then surely we should use it too!

Can we just stop with the BS then about how we Americans are different and better? If we can sit here in the comfort of our living rooms and chat online about how it should be OK to torture someone that the government says they SUSPECT of terrorist connections while over in another thread we chat away about how we don't need the right of habeus corpus around for the next few generations, ( after it has been around as a central legal concept of Western Civilization since the Magna Carta ) then we are truly as bad as any other empire that ever existed. Maybe worse, because we do it from the comfort of our own living rooms.

We send our military off to fight, supposedly to protect a way of life and a set of standards that we don't even care about !

Please tell me, how do we get information out of these people? Can't lock them up at Gitmo, correct? Can't play loud music or make the room cold. Can't use sleep deprivation, right? Give me an answer that will produce results. Or as the Dems usually do, complain about it all without an alternative answer. Tell me, how do we get the info? (Besides stand up for their "rights")

Silence speaks volumes! Still waiting for an answer, anyone?

 

[treedancer]

Re: Torture

Quote Erickims.
Silence speaks volumes! Still waiting for an answer, anyone?


Teach them English,put them I padded room and make them listen to twenty four hours of American campaign commercials, That,a make em talk.:%

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Torture

Quote Erickims.
Silence speaks volumes! Still waiting for an answer, anyone?


Teach them English,put them I padded room and make them listen to twenty four hours of American campaign commercials, That,a make em talk.:%

dd