18' SS YASR. (yet another Starcraft Restoration)

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Thank you P229.

I will investigate the coat-it. Whats to prefer it over the gluvit?

I was going to order the gluvit this week, and got caught up at work. Since I have a bit of corrosion to deal with I have a bit till I get that, but knowing the application is a bit more out there than next week - I am ok with that. I just don't want to be ready to go and have nothing to go with.

Picked up some scotch bright scrubbies, paint stripper wheels, and other tools to start going after the corrosion with. Ray, my 15 y.o. son got out there today and started cleaning some more in the hull. Learned how slick bare alumimum can be when wet, and took a fall. Got a small cut and a large scrape. He's going after some of the ick-oily-black gunk near the transom tommorow. Depending on weather, I hope to use Saturday to get a lot of corrosion dealt with.

I will start cutting the new deck and getting it ready when I cannot work on the hull. The plan so far, along with best guess from previous similar work on my old Piper PA-22, some friends antique aircraft, my old 59 International Truck, various assorted shop projects. etc. hopefully gives me a realistic expectation of whats involved.

Seeing all the superb work here is inspirational. Some of those projects are over the top perfectionism and craftsmanship. I can see how some guys get caught up for LONG times putting these things back into showroom / Custom built condition. Wow!

I expect mine to be "nice enough". Knowing what it will endure after relaunch with kids, soda pop, fish guts, and other hazards, I am looking to be seaworthy, safe, reliable, easy to wash down, and nice enough I don't feel I have to take up night fishing.

Here is my best guess on whats involved time wise. I could be WAY off, but humor me.. Or chime in and let me know I am completely insane!

Finish the strip out of the hull including transom and splashwell. Estiamte 8 - 12 hours.
Corrosion removal. ? Best s.w.a.g is 8 - 12 hours.
Leak test to identify problem areas. 2 - 4 hours.
Leak repairs, rivits, gluvit, JB, 5200, etc. 8 - 12 hours.
Prep hull for paint. 12 - 24 hours. ( Current paint has no adhesion problems. Is only second coat, and not too thick. You can see original paint underneath at just the right angle.)
Paint - 8 -12 hours.
Wet sand and polish 8 - 12 hours.
Reinstall flotation, decking, consoles, seats, controls. 8 - 12 hours. ( 8 - 10 hours to remove, and that was fighting some nasty corroded screws. )
finish electrical - 4 - 6 hours.
reinstall motor, final hookup and assorted tasks. 8 - 12 hours.

All up - 100 - 120 hours more or less. Time frame - 6 weeks. 120 / 6 20 hours per week, 3 hours per day. Every day. Some days get a bit of time, others are all day and into night.

Having lived in a construction zone and remodeled 4 houses this century - I hope I am not too far off here.

While I know it can take 6 months - or more - I set my goals to push myself. I fear if I set a time frame of 6 months, I would not feel enough pressure to move me off dead center, and it would end up taking much longer. Just the way I am wired. I like to push through and get things done, then relax and enjoy till the next project comes along.

I could be misjudging it by a large amount ... But since I am not much on TV... Might as well spend a few hours a night on it instead of the glowing box.

Thanks again, all.

Please feel free to chime in and let me know your thoughts.

Warmest regards,

Blaine
 

Watermann

Starmada Splash of the Year 2014
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These things take time but the more you want it, the more time you'll spend on the boat. Yeah TV, entertainment shows like football are huge wastes of valuable time, that's why I had a radio in my garage so I could listen to the Seahawks while working away and I don't have to watch some guy who made a tackle act like he just saved the whole world.

I would say a more realistic goal is about double what your thinking for a timeline.
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Thanks Waterman.

Just realized I have not put much in the way of photos. I am about 10 hours maybe into the tear out. Here is my progress so far. Good lord willin, and the crik don' t rise, I start in on corrosion and other fun tasks in the morning.
Well, that and finish the tear out...

IMG_20140905_084622.jpg IMG_20140905_084639.jpg


Blaine
 

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classiccat

"Captain" + Starmada Splash Of The Year 2020
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Lookin' good Blaine!

Not to scare you but corrosion set me back more than 2 weeks (working evenings). ...and on the home stretch, another dremel purpose revealed itself:

Post #712
 
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Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
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64
The Adminral has given orders to prepare for exercises in the presence of the Secratary of the Navy. It appears that one of the Newest sailors is going to be honored for 7 years service. This scheduled excersise has been moved forward several hours, and will take longer than previously thought. Therefore corrosion control, and other maintenance duties are to be put on hold until the event is completed.

Last night, The admiral agreed with the capitans suggestion that it may be better to replace the aging land based one way communications screen with something a bit newer, when the illumination failed, and replacement was almost as much as the old device was worth. $850 later, we have a new 50" with surround sound to keep the moral up among the troops while the captain swabs, scrapes, and paints. ( something wrong with that picture. )

Hopefully, I can recover some of the time tomorrow.

Blaine
 

Watermann

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Heels together, toes apart, thumbs on creases and eye straight ahead sailor!
 

Cap'nHandy

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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Sunday 7 Sept.

The exercise went off without a hitch. There was a disturbing absence of Rum in the festivities that followed, however.

Back at dry dock, corrosion control took an unexpected turn with the acquisition of phosphric acid based cleaner / metal prep. In relatively short order, 85% or more of corrosion is gone. 8 hours all up, but some good effect, imo.

The surface is now for the most part bright as a new sheet of AL, and even much of the pitting is clean of corrosion. A rinse, neutralize with baking soda, and lots more rinsing, and I can now see the areas that need a bit more physical intervention. I figure another half day of this and I will be good for the most part. Now I need to build a stand, pull the engine, pull the transom wood, and replace. That will allow me to get a handle on any corrosion on the transom sheet metal. Time to order the waterproofing goodies, as the job will overtake me soon, and I don't wish to fall behind. Looks like the knee brace should get pulled, and allow me to inspect and clean under there, and repair any issues found there. There is some pitting close enough to it, that I would not feel good about not being able to evaluate that for hidden issues.
=======================


Monday, 8 Sept.

Got another light application of cleaner, and then diluted and neutralized with backing soda, and filled all the way to just above the waterline. ONE - ONE! Leaking rivet as far as I can tell. Yea!

I also noticed that I have the somewhat later design hull. There is a large continuous sheet of metal under the ribs that go up the side, so that you cannot even see the double rivet seam like on many of these. I have seen others that had reinforcing plates under every rib, and seen some people add plates between the ribs.

I Will flush again, and then fill after I get the leaks dealt with to test again. Looks like I am going to have a mostly dry hull without too much work.

I will have to deal with maybe a half dozen small perforations that I discovered shortly after I first put it in the water, back in the bilge area where the po had put the bilge pump on a piece of corrugated metal. Now that that area is clean, it is not as bad as I expected. Some pitting, and the previously mentioned perfs to deal with, but not horrid.

Unfortunately, I am going to have to pull the knee brace to check under there. So I will need to re-rivet that area, and repalce the one single leaker I found so far. I will need maybe a couple dozen rivets. Any idea where I can get a small quantity, and also the right tool. I bucked a bunch in the tailcone of some aircraft years ago, so I know the joy. Rather not do blind rivets, I intend to use this is salt on occasion. I might also replace some that the tails look slightly ratty on, just for good measure. Just a few I have seen that I think hold on the keel, and look to be not quite "all there". Corrosion maybe. Just cause they don't leak doesn't mean they pass my inspection.

Overall, its turned out pretty good so far, so I feel like i am still on schedule. Certainly don't lack for sore shoulders and aching back.

I will get more pics of the shiny when there is light enough to see.

Blaine
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Howdy Bluefin. I looked t your resto-- Ressurection thread. Wow. That was one chunk of work. You had just a wee bit o corrosion to deal with thanks to the PO and haphazard patches over the years. :( Nice job... And - You know what a cleco is!! Evil expensive things... Yours is the first thread where I noticed someone actually using them.

Blaine
 

Watermann

Starmada Splash of the Year 2014
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Guess you haven't seen my Chief thread or Astor's SS, I love them Cleco's!



Used them when installing all of my hull stiffeners too.
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Wow. And there they are. Read the thread, but i guess my aversion to the spring loaded devils made me not see. Normally, I am used to seeing an aircraft looking like a hedgehog with hundreds of them poking out of the skin.

Is that patching cracks under the chine?

I have a thought / question rolling around after a good nights sleep. Think about inside the hull, where the ribs are riveted to the outer hull skin. Say a rivet gets either corroded or loose enough from flex and stress to actually allow water molecules to pass. At that point it's a leaker, right? So, if we add Gluvit or similar on the seam, were really only able to get the backside of the rivet, and ONE side of that seam. The other side of that seam under the U channel of the rib, and betweeen the skin and rib and that is not accessible to be able to coat. So we really are assuning that the water is going to head to the outside of the seam, or only out the back if the rivet, instead of the inside direction. Kind of a 50% chance of slowing the infiltration. Or are people using a loonnngggggg swab of some sort, and hoping to reach that, in which case some water may be present under only a small section of skin - where it stays trapped.

The reason I ask, is if we are adding an un-needed step, from a standpoint that if a riveted seam gets a small leak, the water is gonna get in via the other direction given just a bit more time to work it's magic, and, the gluvit adds a barrier that makes it harder for moisture to escape from between the layers, and thus compounds potential corrosion, instead of allowing it to dry. I guess if the rivet was just in a single thickness of metal then gluvit could indeed help if a rivet gets loose. though in that case no need for a rivet, they hold 2 or more sheets together.

So I am wondering if adding the gluvit is a mental feel good step, that makes us think we have more protection that we do, or if it actually stops water, or if it covers up a leak that is allowing corrosion to work in a magnified fashion till we have a bigger problem.

Maybe I am over thinking things, but water trapped is usually a bad thing, in my experience.

Thank a bunch.

Blaine
 

Watermann

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Those are patching cracks in the AL underneath the ends of the ribs where the hull started cracking from the rivet holes. I drilled stop holes at the ends of the cracks back buttered the patches with 5200 and then hammered in new solids to finish the repair.

Loose rivets in the ribs are to be replaced with 5200 in them if they're leaking not just covered in gluvit or they will break the epoxy and leak due to movement. The seams are factory coated in what we call SC smeg, it's reddish colored so they do the inside coating as well at the factory.
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Thanks Waterman.

I am not trying to use gluvit to "fix" any existing leaks. I want dry before I start with correct mechanical fixes.

Right now my seams and rivets don't leak, save one in a rib.

But got to thinking about where I would want to apply it. I see the SC smeg, its in the double riveted seams, all around, and the bow joint.

What I am wondering about, is lets say I have a dry hull, with no leaks. So with stress, a rivet loosens a bit, and starts to leak. I don't see how the gluvit will help anything. As for the existing seams, I can't really get to those easily, as my boat has a large sheet of AL from the ribs up to the gunwale. like one giant reinforcement. Only the front 1/3 of the double riveted seam is visible or accessible, so unless that leaked, its no gain there. And the majrity of the seam cannot be accessed without much pain, and does not leak at this time.

If I do end up with a leak down the road due to stress, damage, etc. I can do the stainless screw / 5200 routine, the blind rivet 5200 routine, or take the time to pull the panel and fix it correctly with new rivet - and 5200...

But if I do add gluvit - I can only see it potentially trapping water between to sheets lf AL, and enhancing corrosive effect.
I think I may go with something like Boesheild or ACF-50. This is more corrosion protection, and then depend on mechanical means for keeping the hull dry.
Does that make sense?

Welp, I gotta take the family for dinner. Talk later.

Thanks again.

Blaine
 

Watermann

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Blaine, I pretty much only feel the gluvit is needed on the seams and in your case maybe just the bow and transom seams or none at all if you choose that route. Not leaking is just that and why mess with it is a good question. As soon as you lay eyes on that transom skin behind the wood you'll have more on your mind anyway. :lol:
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Yep, kind of expect some ugly, having seen some of the joys others have experienced. I plan on a certain level of "bad" and if it's better than that, then whoopeee.

Looks like the gluvit stage will be not needed, as I cant get to most of the seams, and no leaks anyway.

I am starting to think for corrosion prevention going forwards on the bare aluminum parts below decking, I will just do ACF-50 on the lap joints like ribs and such, with boesheild for the rest of the exposed aluminum. As a last step before the foam and deck goes back in. I don't like the way the bilge wants to hold a bit of water, so I plan on just using the wet / dry to suck it dry after getting it home. Considering it sat exposed for near 40 years, not too bad overall. With these products, I can imagine that corrosion will becomes a non issue with a little care and common sense.

Don't want to use carpet, so unless I get an override from the admiral, I would like to coat or paint the hull where it used to have carpet with something that will protect, and can also be used on the deck, for easy clean up and good looks. I see a number of products mentioned. Duraback being one - Other suggestions appreciated.

Rivets. What kind, where to get, and what size? I would like to get the correct alloy, style, and size for the few I will replace when dealing with the knee brace, and the one leaker I have. I came across it somewhere here... but darned if I can find it now.

Thanks bunches,

Blaine
 

Watermann

Starmada Splash of the Year 2014
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http://www.rivetsonline.com/solid-aluminum-rivets-5-32-to-3-16.html

Plug in the page above.

3/16"
3/8" for 2 layers of AL... 7/16" for 3 say for a patch
Brazier head
2117 alloy is harder than the 1100 which is 99% AL My Chief has the 2117 rivets factory, they also have a dimple in the center.

Yeah your going to have to buy 100 of them for 7 bucks but shipping isn't good on that small amount so get some of the large flange rivets too in your order for the decking and any other size or style you'll need later on.
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
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Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Howdy guys -

I got a hoist and snagged a old Ex-Boeing APT rivet gun ( braappppp brappp! ) :D Bucking bar, proper semi-brazier head set. Ordering rivets now.

So I got the regular ones figgured out thanks to Watermann - now I need to figgure out the blind rivets. The end caps apepar to have 3/6 blind, I am thinking to go with aluminum w / aluminum mandrels. The little ones that hold the innermost aluminum molding on the top of the gunwale has me a bit miffed. Seems kinda short for the few I drilled out so far. The tail is only measuring just under .25 in length. hole diameter bout .175 - so are these 5/32 rivets? Wondering If I should just get solids for that little rail and buck all those as well.

The transom end cap came off, and hmmmmmm. The sheet metal extends past the hole enough to block transom removal without either cutting, bending, fold spindle and mutilate...

We may get the motor off tomorrow. And then the splash well and jack the transom out.

Knee brace, clean fill sand all the ugly, then time to cut / glue / coat / replace transom.

So thats the plans for the next 7 - 10 days.

Blaine
 

Watermann

Starmada Splash of the Year 2014
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On the gunnel covering the transom issue, you can upbolt a few of the rub rail bolts on each side to expose the 5/32 blinds underneath, drill them out and lift the gunnel up enough to remove the transom. Me I went all the way, removed the gunnels since all of the rivets were loose and put in new rivets. Amazing how solid it makes the boat to replace 40 year old blind rivets where you can. The other options are just cut it and the end caps cover the cuts or bend up and bend back down when done.

The little rivets that held my gunnel trim on were 1/8" but I deleted that trim from the gunnels altogether.
 

Cap'nHandy

Seaman
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
64
Watermann

Would you work you way up the gunnel -- drill - remove old rivet - debur - replace.. Wondering about ( fearing ) what may happen if I remove the rub rail and too much or all of the gunnel at once.

You know, shape shifting , and then have to work to get everything flexed back just right so all the holes line up again... and drop a cleco in.

While I am on that subject, do you think I will need any of the spring loaded demons to keep things lined up, or do these things hold shape fairly well? And if so - quantity suggestions?

I think I could remove a bit of the gunnel with no problem, but would be a bit timid to pull it off if it causes the hull to go wonky.

It sounds like that may be the best way for the transom. Not easiest, but best. Then I can re-rivet the gunnel. Stiffer is good. When everything is doing it's part, no part has to do too much, everything is stronger.

Some of those blind rivets I have worked with are already too loose and not my idea of fit for service. I may do solids everywhere I can. I have identified about 25 solids in the hull that will get replaced so far. One leaker. The rails in the bow for the support ( carpet behind em ) and a few that just look like the tails are a bit too corroded for my taste, a couple of ugly sets that shoulda been replaced ( if they were on AC the inspector woulda thrown a fit.

I think we may be able to buck real rivets all the way up the inside of the gunnel... I will eyeball and finger it, and if so, I really think that may be best.

Thanks heaps.

Blaine
 
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dozerII

Admiral
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Oct 25, 2009
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6,527
Removing the rubrail will not cause any shape shifting and is pretty easy to do. Removing the gunwale tops will have the boat flexing quite a it, if your reusing the old tops it's not a problem an pointed punch will bring the holes right back into alignment. If your going to replace the tops just use the old one as template to drill the rivet holes and it will come right back to shape.
 

classiccat

"Captain" + Starmada Splash Of The Year 2020
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Dec 20, 2010
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3,405
A pile of the blind rivets in my gunnel top were sheared/corroded.

I replaced all of the blind rivets in my gunnel cap with solid 5/32" brazier-heads...keep a low profile to allow clearance for the rubrail trim. The hull will really tighten-up when you sink those babies in! ...and it's a 1-man show...so you have the joy of rivet banging all-to-yourself :madgrin:
 
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