Anybody Know about Gas Furnaces

[jkust]

Hi all, I went up to my cabin this past week and at some point the furnace shut off for an extended period of time. Luckily I drain everything as a precaution even though I keep it heated but must have missed the master bedroom shower and had two burst pipes to fix. The HVAC heated garage is where the well pump and pressure tank are located but doesn't get drained between winter uses however the back up heating system saved the day in there. The garage got down to 32.7 degrees and the house thermometer that records the low temp just showed error. Minimal damage overall luckily but i've been on borrowed time with the 25 year old furnace and am taking this as the kick in the butt I need to replace it.
There is one HVAC/Plumbing guy there that has done plumbing and ducting work for me that is responsive. In northern MN where the cabin is, service people don't operate like they do in the city so finding someone that does what they say is a find.
He sells two brands of furnaces being Carrier and Goodman. He has so far only quoted Carrier's for me and never mentioned selling Goodman until I asked what else he sells. His initial quotes were the most expensive and second most expensive Carrier they sell. The High Efficiency, two stage ECM Carriers are really expensive and more than I want to spend. When he emailed me that they also sold Goodman after I had to ask, he followed up that he would steer me toward Carrier but no reason why. A bit of internet research today on Goodman (since I haven't gotten his Goodman Quotes yet) seems to indicate Goodman offers furnaces with the same or similar features but at a fraction of the price as the Carrier. In addition, the Goodman reviews on review sites far and away exceed those of the Carrier brand. a Furnace rating site that accumulate user reviews rate the Goodman brand at #9 out of over 100 and Carrier is #27. It seems the best analgy I can come up with is the Carrier is the Mercedes and the Goodman is the Chevy except they look the same to me. I don't need a Mercedes and am just fine with a Chevy. I really haven't gotten any guidance from the HVAC guy even when I ask him directly as opposed to emails. Does anybody have any advice on this situation or experience with Carrier or Goodman? The Goodmans equivalent to the Carrier seems to be about 50% of the price where I can actually locate published pricing but I can only assume there is no free lunch??

 

[alldodge]

As a non-HVAC expert but have repaired my own for years all provide the following: Both can be lemons and both can last another 25 years. The big issue is to be far more considered is the installer. Does the installer know their stuff and will their be any issue of them showing up if there is an issue? I would probably go with Carrier over Goodman if there is a slight price difference, but your said 50% so go with Goodman.

You can install the system your self if you order on line, or go pick up. This would be for companies like Rheem and a few others. The AC side comes pre-charged, but if you think it would be a bit outside your swim lane then you could still install your self a hire someone else to do final hook up.

Personally I like Trane or American Standard (same stuff, American Standard parent company)

 

[Scott Danforth]

having apprenticed for my grandfather for 3 years before I was old enough that meant I was close to free labor, I spent a bit of time installing and servicing furnaces and HVAC systems. The issue with every gas furnace these days is they rely on the ceramic ignighter. in most cases from the same manufacturer.

I have had great luck with Rheem, Trane, and American Standard. however on every one, I have had to replace an ignighter on the worse posible day (below zero temps on a sunday or holiday). on installations where someone will be around. I recommend a spare ignigter and having the owner either understand how to change it, or know of someone who can stop by on a weekend and change it.

For cabins and other recreational houses, my recommendation is a bit different. in addition to a spare ignighter, a main furnace with a thermostat tied in to the phone line that will dial your phone if the temperature drops below 50 degrees, and a small space heater in the basement. have the thermostat on the space heater turned down to 40 degrees. that way when the furnace goes out because of a bad ignighter or inducer motor on a sunday or holiday, the temperature never drops below 40 in the basement and keeps the upper levels above freezing.

Now things like the heat exchanger corroding thru, that is inevitable with the high efficiency furnaces.

 

[Tnstratofam]

I am the service manager for a Factory Authorized Carrier dealer. We sell and install Carrier and Amana Heatpumps and Gas/AC systems. We service all brands. 24 years in HVAC service has taught me that most all systems are good if they are installed properly. For rental or vacation homes we do not generally recommend high efficiency systems. A standard 92-95% efficient system should serve you well. The standard warranty on equipment is 5 years on parts, 20 years on the secondary heat exchanger, and lifetime on the primary heat exchanger. With Carrier and it's other brands, Bryant, and Payne if you register your equipment within 90 days you get an additional 5 year warranty on parts. Labor warranties on all equipment except York and Amana are 3rd party warranties and aren't worth their cost in my opinion. Most other manufacturers have 10 years on parts.

As far as what I'd recommend. That would be a 92% Carrier gas furnace with a 15seer Payne AC system. Best value for the money. Goodman/Amana furnaces are good, but their A/C and Heatpump systems aren't my favorite for reliability. Refrigerant leak issues with the R410a refrigerant is a problem with everybody, but Carrier, Trane, York. Those three brands have been using that refrigerant the longest. Carrier and Dupont developed that refrigerant together in the mid 90's.


Oh by the way for everybody's info manufacturers clearly state that if your equipment isn't installed by a licensed contractor your parts warranty can be considered null and void. Also if you purchase equipment off a non factory website your warranty will not be honored. We have seen homeowners run into this from the manufacturers more and more due to the more complex controls and tighter tolerances with duct work. Also on heatpumps and A/C systems if you do not have your EPA certification and you are working with refrigerant lines you can be fined up to $10,000 per incident. So be careful, you never know who's watching.

 

[bruceb58]

I have a vacation home in the mountains. I have an internet thermostat that sends me text messages and email when the temp drops below a certain point.

I just replaced my furnace. I was warned by my HVAC guy to not go with a high efficiency furnace. They are just not reliable enough for a house where you aren't there all the time where the danger of pipes freezing is great. I went with a regular 80% efficient furnace. I went with a Rheem.

 

[jkust]

Thanks for the responses. It looks like the Igniters are now silicon nitride..I presume that is an improvement over the Ceramic or the brochure wouldn't bother to mention it as a highlight. While the current system has the AC coil and is wired for AC, I think someone took the AC unit before we bought the cabin. Now I think we are going to skip the ac unit and the coil that will need to be replaced due to the current coil being the old R22 (I think that's the old style) style. It is a rare occassion that it gets hot enough to need AC and the coil alone is another $450. That means if we go with the Goodman, we wouldn't get a matching AC. As for a High Effiency or not, our current furance is actually a high efficiency already. Given we just have an LP tank up there and last year it was hard to get it filled, I'm glad we have the high efficiency. We went through three full LP tanks last winter keeping the place warm....this year a little less so far but LP isn't in short supply like last winter.
BruceB....I'm dying to get internet up there but I'd need to get a hot spot on a 2 year contract and just use it only for the wifi thermostat. The lack of an economical way to get internet up there is really a pain. Further to that, the new furnaces (except the single stage versions) all use their own proprietary wifi thermostat that cost at minimum $400 for the Goodman and more for the Carrier version. It seems furnaces have gone a step further technology wise and to get the full effect of what you are paying for, you can't just hook up a Nest or Honewell generic wifi thermostat. For the thermostat to communicate with the Furnace and be able to control the variable and multispeed functions, each brand has its proprietart thermostats.
The struggle we have is the cabin is maybe 3000 square feet and has cathedral ceilings or vaulted ceilings in maybe 60% of it and the current furnace just can't warm it up without the help of electric heaterboards and even then it'll be 62 degrees and beyond that the current furnace just gives up and stops working. Beyond that there just aren't enough ducts in some of the larger rooms.

 

[alldodge]

Sounds like you need a "good" HVAC guy which can look at what you have and calculate heat loss and such and advise what needs to be done, including maybe new duct work

 

[bruceb58]

That's why you get a simple furnace. For me, the cost of the internet alone saving my pipes from freezing is worth the cost.

 

[Tnstratofam]

Your contractor is feeding you a line. Except for the highest efficiency gas systems ( top 2 models )you do not have to use a wifi thermostat with any manufacturers system. As a matter of fact you only have to use a simple 1 heat 1 cool thermostat with most gas with a/c models. If all your contractor is offering is the highest efficiency models find another contractor. The proprietary thermostat carp is just that. Carp.

 

[hrdwrkingacguy]

At the end of the day they all make hot air basically the same way. 80% means 80% of the heat energy goes into the air stream and 20 out the flue. It's not really like one unit brand is doing something another one can't...Read the reviews and see the costs and decide what you are ok with...ECM motors are more efficient more flexible and more expensive. But on a furnace isn't going to do much to the operating cost. My opinion is goodman is garbage, but my residential experiance is limited to my first few years in the trade (until around 2002) then I got into commercial and then into industrial and chillers and stopped...from what I hear goodman is better now. I wouldn't buy one but that's only because I can buy a Mercedes for the price of a Kia and install it myself.

 

[jkust]

Ok so after a bit more research, I decided to go for the Goodman. I'm rolling the dice a bit but went with their top model that has a variable gas valve and an ECM motor plus the proprietary thermostat in order to control the variable features. I ended up doing some serious negotiating and was able to hit my price point for all of the labor including some ducting changes, the unit and the insanely overpriced thermostat. I like the flexibility of being able to add on several Honeywell options later on which are available on Amazon pretty cheap. Install is supposed to happen next week.

 

[bigdee]

For a vacation home I would keep it simple for reliability. Stay away from ECM motors.....replacement cost is around $1000 and I have seen many go bad in my area,mainly due to lightning. All brands use the same G.E. model 13 ECM on their more efficient models including Goodman.

 

[jimbo_jwc]

Ok so after a bit more research, I decided to go for the Goodman. I'm rolling the dice a bit but went with their top model that has a variable gas valve and an ECM motor plus the proprietary thermostat in order to control the variable features. I ended up doing some serious negotiating and was able to hit my price point for all of the labor including some ducting changes, the unit and the insanely overpriced thermostat. I like the flexibility of being able to add on several Honeywell options later on which are available on Amazon pretty cheap. Install is supposed to happen next week.

Keep It Simple Stupid is my theory , Modulating Gas Valve ? Variable Speed drive for Motor ? Standing pilot ?Electronic . Special parts not always available local if Dealer Distributor not around anymore .Spares /Common parts ?

 

[bruceb58]

Modulating gas valve!!!! The main reason I went with a non condensing unit. I can't afford to have my heater quit in the winter and have my pipes freeze.

 

[jkust]

Modulating gas valve!!!! The main reason I went with a non condensing unit. I can't afford to have my heater quit in the winter and have my pipes freeze.

I'm going to take steps this summer to set up the current electric heater boards to be connected to a thermostat as the back up heat source. I really should have done that already. The back up electric heat in the garage where the well pump and the pressure tank are is all that saved those from freezing when the current furnace shut down during a cold spell when we weren't there (the garage is heated by the furnace). I'm taking a gamble on the new tech I realize and may very well regret it. While I don't blow out the pipes I drain them as the plumbing system was designed with a drain down for the upper floors assuming you let the pressure out which I apparently must not have done for the master shower which were the pipes that burst when the furnace failed. I think if I drain it all correctly and use RV antifreeze for the traps (as I do) the only thing I need to worry about is the washing machine freezing as I believe there is always some water in the pump.

The problem with all of this logic is that nothing is ever as easy or works as good as you had hoped.

 

[bruceb58]

There is usually a separate drain for the hot water pipes besides the main stop & drain valve because of the water heater.

 

[jkust]

There is usually a separate drain for the hot water pipes besides the main stop & drain valve because of the water heater.

Gotcha....thanks.