Household Electrical Wiring Question . . .

[tpenfield]

This might be a question for any licensed electricians in the crowd . . .

I am putting in some programmable/automatic timer switches for the summer house, replacing the standard SPST switches that were original. In doing so, I ran into some wiring connections that just don;t look quite right. I am wondering if it is just an oversight or perhaps bad wiring. Comments welcome.

Here are a couple of pics.

It is a light switch for the outside light over the garage doors. I am replacing it with a programmable switch that will turn the light on/off automatically. I've already hooked up 2 other programmable switches with good results. This will be a third light outside light on automatic control.

So, I can see 2 hot leads coming into the switch, so it appears the hot is daisy chained to another location along the circuit. What strikes me as odd is the white whire going to the light fixture connected to the 'hot' side and the black wire mated with the white 'ground/neutral' wires.



the light works fine, but it just seems like the color scheme has not been adhered to . . . basically, it would seem like the white/black leading to the switch should be reversed for conformity purposes.



Comments/thoughts?? Would there be another legitimate reason that they are reversed?

 

[achris]

Ted, I'll try to answer with my knowledge of internal and external wiring that I came across when working on computers in the 80s... Seems the American wiring codes call for white to be 'hot' when the wiring is external to a device, and the black to be hot when internal. It use to confuse the heck out of us when we had a computer that we were running up for installation and the power cord had the wiring one way, then when it went into the connection block inside the machine the colours came out the other way.... I got sent across a room because of it once (and I didn't even have to use my feet ).

As for your wiring, yeah, to see hot one colour and a black in the mix would be disconcerting. All I would suggest is if it working and 'understandable' and unless you have a real problem with it, leave it as is.... Or pull the whole lot out and start again, with a colour code that's recognised, like either red/black/green or brown/blue/green......

A white as a 'switched hot' in the correct colour if you're using red/black/green.... red=hot (unswitched) black=return/neutral, and green or green/yellow=earth....

Chris.......

 

[Tnstratofam]

Here in the states the wiring for houses is typically green or bare for ground, black for hot, white for neutral or return. It looks to me like a previous owner just hooked up the white to the switch as hot, and the black to neutral. Technically this will work, but it is out of code. The reason for using the wire colors per code is to prevent someone from shooting across a floor like what happened to Chris. Any electrician worth a darn knows to check all wires for hot when working for examples just like this one. If it concerns you then change the wires at the receptacle/light then change them at the switch.

 

[MTboatguy]

Depending this could be correct and most likely is correct, there are certain instances that you actually swap wires on switch installations.

Read through this link, then click the other links to read about variations on standard wiring.

http://www.electrical-online.com/wir...h-variation-1/

Here is another link with lots of information.

http://ask-the-electrician.com/wiringdiagrams.html

 

[tpenfield]

Thanks for the replies so far . . .

The wiring is original, and we had this house built in 1992. So, the house should be up to modern codes . . . and it is fairly certain that this is how the electrician connected the switch. I noticed the same sort of thing on another SPST switch when I installed the other programmable switches.

I'll read through the links provided. I hooked it up as it was originally wired, but I can change it at some point if warranted. The light works on the automatic switch.

Just trying to make the place look lived in even though we are not there often in the winter.

 

[NYBo]

Yes, it does look like the wires are reversed, with the neutral being switched. Bad idea, against code, and a simple fix (connect all white wires together, black wires to switch). It IS common for the white to be used as hot, especially in older installations before we had switch devices that require both hot and neutral (e.g. timers). With a simple switch leg, for example, power goes directly to the fixture, and 14-2 cable is run to the switch. The switch has the black and white wires connected to it to complete the hot circuit. However, by code, the white wire must be colored black at the connection points to indicate it's being used as a hot.

 

[gm280]

Standard residential wiring code is available for anybody to read and comply. If I run across such wiring, I know I'd change it to the standard code and check everywhere it went for compliance. I know others will think that is silly since it worked for years, but I am OCD that way... I just can't stand short cut type work. If I am going to take my time to do the work, it is going to be to code... That IS why there is a standard code in the first place! It takes the same amount of time to do it right the first time then to come back and fix things later. While this may pass code (I don't see it though) I'd still change it to a standard wiring standard. JMHO!

 

[MTboatguy]

If it was done by an electrician when the house was built, it was done to the acceptable nature at the time the house was built and it had to be inspected, I know here locally, where the norm is not the norm as you would think in your mind and the inspectors pass it. Switch wiring is different depending on the circumstances. Now that said, if you are really concerned, I would call a licensed electrician in your location and talk with them, show them the exact same pictures and get the opinion from one that is well versed in those local variations that are acceptable, because there is a national code, then there are the variances by the state and even down to the local level.

 

[NewfieDan]

It looks to me like there are few issues. There should only be a single wire under each screw at the switch itself. These should be pigtailed so only a single wire goes to the switch. It also looks like the white and black to the light are reversed.

But there is a ingle instance where a white and black get connected. This is where a single cable is run down to switch from a light fixture when the power comes into the light box not the switch box.

Your appears to be reversed. Follow the advice of NYBo and you should be good.

BTW I am qualified electrician in Canada for last 20yrs.

 

[MTboatguy]

Here is a link that might be beneficial about which states do what, what version of the code they have adopted and such, it is by a switch and plug manufacture who is very large here i n the US. Myself if there was any questions in my mind, I would contact a electrician in my local area.

http://blog.leviton.com/what-homeowners-must-know-about-national-electrical-code

 

[tpenfield]

Yea, wiring is probably reversed . . . it seems when you use a white wire as hot rather than neutral, it is supposed to have black tape around the wire near the junction.

Interesting thing is not all the outside lights were hooked up that way, some are correct and some are not. Must have been a sloppy electrician doing the final installs.

 

[lckstckn2smknbrls]

This is why I like running the wires in EMT conduit. I can pull any color I need.

 

[glenn property of pam]

It looks to me like there are few issues. There should only be a single wire under each screw at the switch itself. These should be pigtailed so only a single wire goes to the switch. .

just a quick question ..... as the switch has multiple connection points as in the screw and the push insert terminals (in the pictures one black goes to the screw and one goes to the push connection) is that still against code?

 

[Grandad]

As a retired electrical inspector, I can say that wire colors at switches can be confusing to many people. An electrician servicing a switch must assume that any of the black, white or red wires may be alive. Using white as a live conductor at a switch is permissible by the Canadian Electrical Code and I believe the NEC is identical in this regard. What is paramount is that the wire colors be correct at the light outlet. As others have mentioned, depending at which entry point the power originates in the circuit, it may be necessary to use white as the live conductor at a switch. Using cables as opposed to conduit provides limited color options. This becomes even more apparent when wiring a 3-way or 4-way light control.

Wire color at a light outlet is another story. The color standard matters at the light socket to ensure that the correct polarity is observed. Polarity is important to ensure that only the tip of a traditional ?Edison? base bulb contacts live parts. If the polarity was reversed, the lamp would still function, but the screw shell of the bulb would be alive; an obvious danger to anyone changing a bulb. So to maintain the correct polarity, the color code at light outlet boxes is standard for anyone changing a light fixture. The shell of the socket must always connect to a white conductor which is a return path, not a live conductor. It doesn?t matter so much at most simple switches and you?ll find that the terminal screws most often have no polarity markings.

In this particular case, I suspect that you are correct to be concerned. I would have expected that all 3 of the white wires would be connected together and only the black wires connected to the switch. However, I would also check the connections at the other end of the cable to ensure that interchanging the colors does not make the shell of the bulb alive. By the way, taping a white wire black is poor trade practice. Tape is not permanent, particularly above a warm light fixture. Two wires at or under one screw is acceptable if that is the manufacturer?s original design spec and the switch has been certified as such by an appropriate agency (eg- CSA or UL). You may find that this switch clearly has 2 entry holes that will capture 2 wires of equal size. - Grandad

 

[bigdee]

just a quick question ..... as the switch has multiple connection points as in the screw and the push insert terminals (in the pictures one black goes to the screw and one goes to the push connection) is that still against code?

NO not a code violation.....one is under screw and the other is on push lock. It is a crappy way to do it though. Normal convention is to pigtail into one wire. The black and white wires do appear to be backwards. Reverse them and see if light works.

 

[tpenfield]

NO not a code violation.....one is under screw and the other is on push lock. It is a crappy way to do it though. Normal convention is to pigtail into one wire. The black and white wires do appear to be backwards. Reverse them and see if light works.

Correct . . . only 1 wire was at the screw terminal, the other was at the push-in connector. So, the connections themselves are per code, it is really just the bass-ackwards on the wiring running to the light fixture. The light works regardless, so I left well-enough alone.

 

[NewfieDan]

I personally don't use the push in connectors (personal choice). I do agree that it very poor trade practice to wrap one wire around the terminal screw and put a second wire into the push in connector. I take the extra few seconds and pigtail the wires so only a single wire is connected.

As for the wiring that grandad is talking about I recently had to fix this situation at SIL place. When I put in new lights the living room had 2 black wires connecting to the light fixture. After a few minutes with a tester, I found that supply and switch were not done correctly.

 

[achris]

Well, if we're on about bad wiring. I pulled a light fitting down to replace it a little while ago. The wiring underneath was done by a 'professional' electrician... What a joke! The 'loop' for the hots was just wrapped in insulting tape! Permanently live wires, and we play properly here, 240V, just wrapped in a couple of turns of tape. :facepalm: ... I couldn't believe what I was seeing, so I took a photo (or 3), just so if the local electrickery board questioned why I put my own fittings up.... (We're suppose to use 'licensed' electricians here.... NEVER!)

BTW, that green, that's an earth right next to live wires, and wrapped with the same bit of tape!...

Does this look acceptable to anyone?!???!??!!!? (and yes, before anyone asks, I did fix it up properly before I put the new light fitting on...)

 

[Tnstratofam]

Here and I thought we only had electrical hack jobs here in the US. That's some reassuring electrical work there Chris. Makes people question why they pay for "Professional" electrical work.

 

[achris]

Here and I thought we only had electrical hack jobs here in the US. That's some reassuring electrical work there Chris. Makes people question why they pay for "Professional" electrical work.

Exactly!