Copper Pipe Sweat Soldering - Any Plumbers Still On Here?

minuteman62-64

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I'm replacing a valve on my outdoor irrigation system (see photo). I'll be soldering in a new ball valve to replace the old gate valve. Because of the configuration, I'll be soldering joints close together - see attached drawing - joints to be soldered numbered 1-4..

My question is the sequence of heat/solder application to make sure I get good joints. Alternate sides of valve (1,4 then 2,3)? Or, do one side (1,2), wrap with water soaked rag and do other side (4,3). Other?

I'm planning on wrapping the bottom joints with wet rags to prevent any heat damage.


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CCF06262014.pdf

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minuteman62-64

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Arggggg! Now my pdf won't post as an image. If you double click on the pdf listed under "Attached Files" you'll get my drawing. I'm sure the folks in charge of putting the lipstick on the pig can tell me how I'm screwing up :)
 

Gyrene

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I have several plumber brothers-in-law.
After test-fitting, I would do the valve first - probably on a bench - joints 2 and 3 - then solder onto the in and out pipes. Be certain the valve is open until you're done soldering.
 

Scott Danforth

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I would do everything on the bench (or tail gate) except the last two elbows. wrap a wet rag around the valve to cool it down to not cause a leak at the packing. I normally toss the valve into a bucket of water after the first two solder joints.
 

minuteman62-64

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OK, so valve joints first on the bench. Then keep valve body cool while soldering bottoms of 90's to risers.

I did the original, but that was 25 years ago and I've forgotten the sequence I used :(
 

Boomyal

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Don't worry about the new ball valve. They will take more heat that you can imagine. Cut the old valve out right below the two elbows. File down the the edges on your cuts, use a small tube to suck any water completely down and away from the new joints, and clean the pipes where your new elbows will drop down on them. Before all this, measure the width of your old valve and elbows, recreate a new assembly on the bench, ie, new valve, close nipples and elbows.. You will probably have to cut a couple of new short nipples as I don' t think you can get away with using a couple of copper street elbows.

Like I said, clean and flux the two stand pipes, and flux the inside of your new elbows, then fit your new assy down over the stand pipes. Now you can solder them. Heat the joints at the the edge of the elbows, then move your torch up toward the bend in the elbow as you apply the solder. The solder will follow the heat and suck up into the joint. Have a rag hand to wipe the excess solder as it runs down the pipe. I always wipe that joint, immediately after soldering, with a brush laden with flux. It might not be pretty as as much solder will flow down the pipe as gets sucked up into the joint.

Be aware. Sometimes old copper pipe will not re-solder. I have had that happen numerous times. I take the leaking joint apart, and there is solder all around the pipe and inside of the fitting, but they still leaked.
 

foodfisher

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Imo, the heats already there. Do 2 followed immediately 1, 3 then 4. Cool in between I you feel right about it. I've installed a lot of ball valves at water heaters, with no ill effects, doing the complete job utilizing the existing heat to help with the next joint. In vertical applications I keep the valve closed so solder won't enter the valve.
 

MikDee

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Being a retired pipefitter, you have a few good ideas here, and what Boomyal said about sums it up. One more thing, make sure you have an open end on one side if you can. This way the hot gases have a way to exhaust! One time I soldered up 2 lines for a guy that took his meter out, just 2 straight pieces of pipe, with a coupling on each side, it came out perfect (I thought), well when we turned the water on, it leaked like a sieve? :eek: Oops! happened to realize then, no way for the heat;and gases to escape, and told him shut off the water again, and go upstairs to open all your faucets for now, resweat it, and that did the Trick ;)
 
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bigdee

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PEX has spoiled me away from much copper sweating. If it were mine I would cut the lines at 1 and 4 and sweat in 2 PEX adapters and complete the rest in PEX.
 

Tim Frank

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+1 ^ !!

Up until 6 weeks ago I'd have said "c'mon, be a man and get out your torch".
But I had to redo the "Warden's" laundry room plumbing and the hardware store that I convinced me that PEX was worth a try. Reluctantly I paid $100- for the tool (still cheaper than the copper pipe and fittings I'd have used) and went at it.
Sold!

For outside stuff, I'd never consider anything else.
 

dolluper

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Hum I always pull the valve apart before I solder ....just me I guess wanting to keep it new......use lots of flux on shinny joints inside and out....add more flux if needed while solder........bend your solder into a hook to go around pipe,with end of hook in front of you start soldering,hook will melt down to straight when you end back up front......makes it real easy and nicer joints
 

cpnthrfan

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I have been a plumber for 25 yrs. Anything around the house I use shark bite fittings for. You can put all together and solder it in a vice. The valve can handle the heat. Just don't move it around much for a few seconds. Silver brute and Nocarode are the best solder flux combo
 

minuteman62-64

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OK, done. Here's what I ended up with:

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Not real elegant, probably not code compliant and certainly not what I'd planned.

First, appreciate the PEX recommendations. Since I already had a bunch of fittings and sections of pipe, plus all the tools, from past projects, didn't make much sense to go in a new (for me) direction. Based on the home improvement shows I've seen it sure looks like the way to go with a big remodel or new construction.

The location of the fittings mandated shutting off the water to the entire house. My original strategy, in the event of problems/delays, consisting of showering at the gym, eating out and setting aside a couple of buckets of water for emergency toilet flushing did not get good reviews. So, to minimize water shut-off time, I prefabricated the valve/90/riser assembly (after careful measuring). I even sweat soldered hose fittings on this assembly and did a pressure test (about 80 psi) to insure no leaks.

Then came the installation. I used a sawzall to cut out the valve. Used a hand pump with 1/4" tubing to evacuate the water from the pipes in the ground. Then un-soldered the 90's. Cleaned up the stubs real good and soldered on the prefabbed assembly.

Arrgg. My unblemished record of never having a successful below ground level solder joint on pipe that had been in-ground for a few years continued. Both legs leaked like sieves. I had enough length on the new risers so I could cut them off and try again. Same result.

OK, on to the hardware store to purchase a couple of 3/4" compression unions. Should hold together till next winter when I'll have a plumber re-do my entire water service line - because of a structural issue that was there when I bought the place.

Appreciate the input guys.
 

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Boomyal

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Yep, on the old pipe. I have had that happen where you take the fitting apart and the solder had flowed all around the joint on both the pipe and the fitting but it leaked like a sieve.
 

minuteman62-64

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Today, in a more tranquil state of mind, took a look at the failed fittings and analyzed my procedures. I think a good part of my problem was operator error - I was kneeling, bent over, working down in a hole (I'm no longer particularly nimble). I think I didn't get the hot part of my MAPP flame on the fittings consistently enough - maybe heated them just enough to boil out the flux before I got them up to temp and applied the solder.

Oh well. What's done is done. With any luck that will be my last plumbing job.

At Home Depot this a.m. purchasing a valve box so I won't have to bury those compression unions. Took a look at the Sharkbite fittings. Apparently they are OK for underground use. Maybe if I'd used those to join the valve/riser assembly to the underground stubs ..........
 

foodfisher

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Clean is key and too much flux is just enough. Edit: Compression underground just doesn't feel right.
 

minuteman62-64

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Edit: Compression underground just doesn't feel right.

Yeah, everything I've read indicates underground connections are supposed to be brazed. I did put a box around the valve so the compression fittings are above ground. Because the line to this valve takes off from another compression fitting on the main water feed (I didn't do it - was here when I bought the place) I'm going to either replace the entire main line or have the compression fitting removed and replaced with a brazed coupling sometime this winter. Then I'll have the feed to the irrigation system connected to the water supply above ground, where it enters the house.
 

MikDee

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Yeah, everything I've read indicates underground connections are supposed to be brazed. I did put a box around the valve so the compression fittings are above ground. Because the line to this valve takes off from another compression fitting on the main water feed (I didn't do it - was here when I bought the place) I'm going to either replace the entire main line or have the compression fitting removed and replaced with a brazed coupling sometime this winter. Then I'll have the feed to the irrigation system connected to the water supply above ground, where it enters the house.

IMO, as I mentioned, you could have a perfect joint that leaks, unless you have at least ONE end OPEN to the atmosphere! You cannot solder a closed vessel. If you wanted to solder 2 caps on a piece of copper pipe, then you'd need a valve in the middle open to the atmosphere till you are done soldering, otherwise you'll get voids in the perfect joints causing them to leak!

You can silver braze using sulfous flat silver rods, but you'd need a Turbo-torch on your B-tank to have enough heat to almost get the copper red, then just feed in the silver, it will flow like butter. You would probably have to take your valves apart, or put a heat sink on them using this method.
Silfos: http://silfos.com/products/catalog/Sil-Fos-Silvaloy-orderby0-p-1-c-55.html
 

minuteman62-64

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IMO, as I mentioned, you could have a perfect joint that leaks, unless you have at least ONE end OPEN to the atmosphere! You cannot solder a closed vessel. If you wanted to solder 2 caps on a piece of copper pipe, then you'd need a valve in the middle open to the atmosphere till you are done soldering, otherwise you'll get voids in the perfect joints causing them to leak!

You can silver braze using sulfous flat silver rods, but you'd need a Turbo-torch on your B-tank to have enough heat to almost get the copper red, then just feed in the silver, it will flow like butter. You would probably have to take your valves apart, or put a heat sink on them using this method.
Silfos: http://silfos.com/products/catalog/Sil-Fos-Silvaloy-orderby0-p-1-c-55.html

For the work on the main supply line I'll be hiring a pro (as I mentioned in a previous post, I expect this valve replacement to be my last plumbing job :) ). I'll get the trench dug and leave the decision to silver solder/braze/replace entire line up to the pro.
 
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