Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

[getinmerry]

I'm in the process of hiring a company to put up my pole barn. I've had 5 estimates done with lots of similar prices. All the companies except one set the posts with dry concrete dumped in the hole.

Price is not a major concern. I'm old-school and feel that a wet pour is much better than a dry one. I've ripped out deck and fence posts that were dry-poured and the majority were not set correctly (many still had powder pockets where ground moisture never got to).

One of the company reps. told me that the concrete is not even needed- it's a formallity. The posts are 4' down and the weight of the building will keep things from shifting. Maybe so, but to me, that's a half a**ed approach. I shredded that company's estimate.

The one company I really like. I want to use them, but they only do dry pour concrete. I told them that I'm willing to pay extra for a truck to come in and do the pour, but they aren't willing to do it.

What's everyone's opinion on the subject? Am I just an old dog that can't learn a new trick?

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I suppose that would depend on the climate and moisture content of your soil, if the company doing the work cannot provide a warranty against your concerns, then find one that will, be sure to check their track record.

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

This is a project I've been planning for years. I've visited countless pole barns from all 5 of the companies I got estimates from. I ruled out 6 other companies before getting a single estimate. I have spoken with about 25 people that have used the companies I'm currently dealing with. I've done a ton of homework and am very certain with what I want. All the companies offer really good warranties, but will they be around in 15 years to honor them?

Where I live, we have lots of snow. I have seen numerous pole barns collapse from snow-load. The one I'm putting up is over-spec'd and I want it right. To me, the concrete is a big issue, but these companies all have very good reputations. I may be a little overboard on this.

 

[OldePharte]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I guess I can't blame yuo for wanting to get it done right. I would ask the leading bidder the $ differential between the wet and dry mix. Obviously, the wet mix is going to to cost more as the truck and driver has to be paid.

As far as barns collapsing due to snow loads - my guess that it would be due to improperly designed/built roof support system. Not because of the use of dry placed concrete. Dry placed concrete can be alternative if one adds some water in between bags and rodding with a piece if rebar or equivalent.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I live in VT where we tend to have deep frost lines.

I like cardboard tubes used and wet placement of cement. The pimary reason is the tube provides a slippery surface for the freezing ground to act upon and prevent lifing a pole ore more. Perhaps it'd overdesign on my part or the other solution is to sink the poles in 5+ feet in my climate.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

One of the company reps. told me that the concrete is not even needed- it's a formallity. The posts are 4' down and the weight of the building will keep things from shifting. Maybe so, but to me, that's a half a**ed approach. I shredded that company's estimate.

The one company I really like. I want to use them, but they only do dry pour concrete. I told them that I'm willing to pay extra for a truck to come in and do the pour, but they aren't willing to do it.

What's everyone's opinion on the subject? Am I just an old dog that can't learn a new trick?

Sounds like you have already decided how the job needs to be done.
Spending a lot of time researching the credentials of companys, and then discounting their advice doesn't seem to be a consistent approach.

 

[mscher]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Most pole barns built around here,simply are set on precast or poured concrete footers. This how I plan to build mine. If a wind strong enough, comes along to move it, then we got a real problem, anyway.

I don't get you're builders reluctance for wet concrete. Will they be using prebagged concrete mix? Can't they just throw it in a portable mixer and add some water, especailly if you are paying extra?

Some claim that the dry acutally sets up harder, but I always thought that they were just too lazy to mix it with water.

Pole barns that collapse were probably not even built to local building codes.

 

[cornercanyon]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I would use dry very reluctantly.

The only advantage I can imagine to a dry set is that the lateral support required during construction should be less. A wet set would require additional support until the concrete reaches cure strength. As a home builder and developer for over 20 years I would stick to my guns. Every time I have gone against my gut on a project I was the one who paid for the fix.

It sounds like a great project, we want to see the pictures!

 

[sturdavj]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Wet concrete is the only way to go.

There is no possible way dry concrete will have the same strength. Concrete obtains its strength through a blending of cement, sand, and aggregate. A percentage of each of these three ingredients provides the various strength ratings applied to concrete. In special applications I have in times past poured concrete that has been strengthen with a fiber (much like a fiberglass) and a polymer product blended into the batch to provide exceptional strength, expensive. In all cases where strength is issue it is very important that the concrete and ingredients are blended thoroughly.

If your contractor insists on a dry pour, then talk to them about ordering your concrete from the batch plant with a minimum amount of water mixed in it, when it arrives at the job site add just enough water to get it down the shoot and into the post hole.

With five foot post holes & a wheelbarrow ? full of concrete these poles will be standing after a Katrina like storm moves through?

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Wet concrete is the only way to go. There is no possible way dry concrete will have the same strength?

Pretty strong opinion without any substantiation., and at best misleading.
The compressive strength developed by the dry mix may well exceed that of a wet pour. The tensile strenth of concrete in this application is irrelevent.
There are numerous major cement manufacturers who offer dry-mix product, specified for this application. I wonder why?

. Concrete obtains its strength through a blending of cement, sand, and aggregate. A percentage of each of these three ingredients provides the various strength ratings applied to concrete. In special applications I have in times past poured concrete that has been strengthen with a fiber (much like a fiberglass) and a polymer product blended into the batch to provide exceptional strength, expensive. In all cases where strength is issue it is very important that the concrete and ingredients are blended thoroughly.

Concrete 101, the basics, but not very germane to this situation. You haven't asked about local soil details, size or type of structure, and possible frost implications. Far more significant than whether dry or wet mix concrete is used.
The technique and workmanship used in setting the posts will have far greater impact on the strength of the building than will the type of concrete.
They will likely avoid using cardboard forming tubes, will ensure going below the frost line, and will have a reverse taper on the hole, belled at the bottom.Those are the main causes of frost heave.

If your contractor insists on a dry pour, then talk to them about ordering your concrete from the batch plant with a minimum amount of water mixed in it, when it arrives at the job site add just enough water to get it down the shoot and into the post hole.

Why not sit down with the contractor and find out why they, as professionals, knowledgable about local conditions, with their reputation and a** on the line, still stick to their guns.
I don't understand why anyone would offer advice, anonymously and from a distance, that suggests ignoring the advice of 5 pre-selected local contractors who are all singing from the same hymn book. ( Very carefully selected according to the OP, who says "This is a project I've been planning for years. I've visited countless pole barns from all 5 of the companies I got estimates from. I ruled out 6 other companies before getting a single estimate. I have spoken with about 25 people that have used the companies I'm currently dealing with.)
You know, maybe they actually know their business.....


The OP also says

Where I live, we have lots of snow. I have seen numerous pole barns collapse from snow-load. The one I'm putting up is over-spec'd and I want it right. To me, the concrete is a big issue, but these companies all have very good reputations. I may be a little overboard on this."

Collapsing under snow load and the type of concrete used are mutually exclusive. IMO you ARE overboard on this.
Trust your due diligence and research on the choice of contractor.
If you don't really trust your contractor's knowledge and professional ability....you don't trust your contractor....period.
Having said that, it is your $$$, will be your building, and your ongoing concern.
You have to do what you are ultimately comfortable with.

 

[cornercanyon]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Tim...

Your email has some great information in it, though your tone is really condescending.

I think OP said that his concern was the Dry Mix would be Dry Set, ie: no water would be mixed in. While there are great Dry Mix concretes, I believe they require mixing prior to the pour and I thought that was OP's concern.

Your comment about sitting down is always a good idea. Perhaps this barn could be structurally sound with just compacted road base under and around the poles, without talking to the contractor how would you know? OP hasn't offered any reasoning the contractor gave, just their unwillingness to mitigate his concern. Unwillingness to address a client's concerns is always a red flag.

Regarding singing on the same page, in my experience many voices singing the same note doesn't mean they are singing the right note. If a contractor can reasonably explain something to change the way my gut feels I can be convinced, but experience has taught me to follow my gut not the crowd.

This is a great site, and positive debate on some interesting issues.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Codes in my area for the posts are to be set on a 1' thick pad in the bottom of the hole below frost line. Once the post is set on the concrete footer/pad it is backfilled with gravel. Purportedly posts set in concrete will tend to hold moisture in causing rotting or known as the Bayliner syndrome.

This past fall I help set the trusses on a bud's pole barn. His framing was out of wack, but thankfully with the posts being set in gavel made it easier to get plumb again.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Tim...
Your email has some great information in it, though your tone is really condescending..

I wasn't intending to be . I was just suggesting that it is perhaps presumptuous for amateurs, who are well-removed from the locale where all this will take place, to criticise the pros who are on hand, without some serious explanation as to why. I saw strong statements, but no back-up.

I think OP said that his concern was the Dry Mix would be Dry Set, ie: no water would be mixed in. While there are great Dry Mix concretes, I believe they require mixing prior to the pour and I thought that was OP's concern..

The dry mixes that I am familiar with are placed dry and soaked in place. No mixing required and develop good compressive strength.

Your comment about sitting down is always a good idea. Perhaps this barn could be structurally sound with just compacted road base under and around the poles, without talking to the contractor how would you know? OP hasn't offered any reasoning the contractor gave, just their unwillingness to mitigate his concern. Unwillingness to address a client's concerns is always a red flag..

I don't know the specific issues in this locale any more than most of the posters. There are probably a number of ways that you could skin this cat, but the best information/solutions, IMO, probably would come from the contractor.

Regarding singing on the same page, in my experience many voices singing the same note doesn't mean they are singing the right note. If a contractor can reasonably explain something to change the way my gut feels I can be convinced, but experience has taught me to follow my gut not the crowd.
This is a great site, and positive debate on some interesting issues.

Don't disagree with that statement in general, except that the OP outlines the reasearch and checks that he has made; way more than I ever do, and more than anyone I know would likely do. The Gentleman has done his homework!
So the 5 companies "singing from the same hymn book" had been carefully pre-screened. At that point, when they all have the same story, I would listen.

This is a great site, and positive debate on some interesting issues.

Absolutely agree.

 

[gss036]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I really don't know if my pole barn has cement on the poles or not, but don't think it has, just buried in the ground. It has been standing for almost 30 years now and has gone through at least two, maybe three winter storms with 3 feet of snow or more and wind gusts up to 115 MPH, measured by the county search and rescue station about 1/3 mile from my house. I really do not think it matters. It is your barn, have it built how you want it.

 

[sturdavj]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Tim Frank you need to get a life, this is a pole barn not a flipping bridge support.

If you really think a bag of dry cement dumped in a post hole has the same strength as well mixed concrete? Then there is no reaching you.

Yes I may be an amateur in your assessment, but I venture to guess I have mucked, wheel barrowed, floated & troweled (both hand and powered) finished enough concrete to know what works for a frigging post hole.

I can also tell you that I have worked enough construction sites to know that there is always some shmuck who claims he is a concrete expert and wants to stand around debate its properties.


When it comes to concrete, the truth be known the simpleton doesn?t have a clue what the difference is between a set of knee boards and a set of cutting boards. In this Sir case you have shown to be worthy of that honor.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

this is a pole barn not a flipping bridge support.

Well, at least we agree on something.

If you really think a bag of dry cement dumped in a post hole has the same strength as well mixed concrete? Then there is no reaching you. .

Hey, I just go by the spec sheets. And who is talking about a bag of dry cement? This is a pre-mixed CONCRETE product, developed specifically for this application. (but I WOULDN"T suggest it for a bridge support....)

Yes I may be an amateur in your assessment, but I venture to guess I have mucked, wheel barrowed, floated & troweled (both hand and powered) finished enough concrete to know what works for a frigging post hole..

Most of us ARE amateurs, although there was one gentleman who says he is a contractor. When amateurs contradict pros, they should have more basis than essentially "I've done this before, I know what I'm doing". These contractors can make exactly the same claim...

I can also tell you that I have worked enough construction sites to know that there is always some shmuck who claims he is a concrete expert and wants to stand around debate its properties..

In this thread there are several of us "schmucks", I am just one of them; but only one says that his way is the "only way to go".

When it comes to concrete, the truth be known the simpleton doesn?t have a clue what the difference is between a set of knee boards and a set of cutting boards. In this Sir case you have shown to be worthy of that honor.

A very polite and measured poster to this thread told me that one of my posts was condescending. It was not intended to be. I apologise if that is the way it seemed to you.
I also did not want to make this personal which is why I removed the name from your quotes to which I responded in my post.
These same points were made by others and I thought your quotes were representative enough to respond to them with no attribution.
If you though I was taking a run at you specifically, I wasn't, but my fault for not being clearer.

That may account for the tone of your response ~ which may get this thread locked. Namecalling does not add much to the discussions in here.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

I'm with you.
I prefer concrete and wet concrete at that. This would be the strongest way to go. I think our freeze line here in MD is like 32"-36".

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Gentlemen...... please keep an eye on the name calling and language

 

[cornercanyon]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Well it appears we have chased the original poster, Getinmerry, away. Too bad I would love to hear more about his project and the direction he chose to go.

Enjoy the day.

 

[getinmerry]

Re: Dry vs. Wet Pour Concrete For Pole Barn

Sorry guys, I wasn't chased away. I was travelling this weekend.

I have been searching the web to find an end to my debate. Here's what I 've found so far:

The National Concrete and Masonary Association (www.ncma.org) doesn't even recognize that there is such a thing as "dry pour concrete"

I found this on the Home Depot or Lowe's website (it's about fence posts, but kind of the same thing):

Question:
Can I dump my pre-mix concrete in post hole or must I mix it first? Customer Question: My question deals with setting 4x4 pressure treated fence posts with concrete. I was wondering how important it is to mix the "pre-mix " concrete before I set my posts. I would like to take the easy way out and just add about 80 pounds of pre-mix without mixing it. Does that sound acceptable? I'm planning a 6' wood fence in a mountainous environment 8200' elevation with typical wind loads for that elevation. Please let me know what you think.
Reply:
It is preferred to mix the concrete mix with water prior to pouring it in the fence post holes, however many people including professionals do not. The dry mix will absorb moisture from the surrounding ground and cure eventually. The problem with using the mix without using water is that the concrete closest to the post may not ever get wet or cure properly. 'Air pockets' and some spots inside may not cure properly and cause premature footer failure. If you simply use dry mix, pour water in the hole before and after the dry mix as a compromise.


Here's some more info on the project to maybe help clarify some of the questions above:

I live in Western New York. For those who know garden zones, I am in Zone 4. The frost line is typically about 36". We get tremendous amounts of snow because of lake effect from Lake Erie in the winter. had over 200" this past winter. I plan on dying in the house I 'm in, therefore I want this to last.

Thanks for the input so far!!!

Chuck