Considering a different tow vehicle, thoughts?

KDMatt

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Hey guys, I could use a bit of advice on tow vehicles.

It's winter at the moment, but during the summer I'll be hauling my 18 foot fiberglass deckboat that I restored last season (never finished my thread, but I finished the resto). The current tow vehicle actually belongs to my significant other -- it's her daily driver and she hates how awful the fuel economy is. It's a '96 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4 liter straight six and 4 wheel drive.

The dry weight of the boat is about 2100 lbs, the motor is another 400 ('99 Yamaha Vmax 150) ... and am I wrong in estimating the trailer to be around another 500ish? It's a shoreland'r from about 1988. Not 100% on the model since it's been repainted and all of its decals were removed.

The Jeep makes about 190 hp and 210 lb/ft of torque and routinely returns about 18mpg highway with nothing behind it (don't ask me about what it does while we're towing, haha). One of my first projects in the spring is going to be regreasing the hubs on the trailer since I expect I'm encountering a lot of drag there that I don't need to be.

All told, the Jeep hasn't really been a stellar tower for this rig. It didn't quit or fail to pull up a ramp, but on the highway it was just a teensy bit scary on long climbs... then again I'm something of a towing novice, and not used to chugging along at 60 mph on the interstate, so that could be big, big part of it. The brakes on Grand Cherokees are also notoriously bad -- even with new calipers, pads, and master cylinder, stopping its own weight is sometimes a bit of a battle, much less with extra weight behind it.

I'm looking for a compromise vehicle that offers up more towing power/torque, but surpasses the 4 liter Jeep in fuel economy. The list of contenders is pretty short, but at the moment I'm feeling a bit tempted by vehicles like the Honda Pilot, or its american facsimile the Saturn Vue, which promises something like 25 mpg highway, while also boasting around 250 hp/266 lb/ft of torque. It would be adequately efficient to be her daily driver (and let's be honest, she does really enjoy driving an SUV,) but still theoretically ponies up enough juice to pull my boat on the weekend.

So the obvious question is something like... At an approximate 3000 lb rig, that doesn't leave me a lot of wiggle room with that 3550 towing capacity for either vehicle, does anyone know if the Vue or Pilot need a "towing package" to be properly equipped for a task like this? What about trailer brakes? How do I know if I have them? How hard are they to install if I don't? This close to towing capacity it's going to be pretty crucial to have them, right?

I'm minimizing my search to AWD vehicles, and I'd like to hear people chiming in if they've got some experience with these vehicles, or similar. Thanks!

- Matt
 

Chad Flaugher

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Any of the smaller SUV's are going to be a bit bullied by the boat... My half ton 2wd full sized Chevrolet truck has plenty of power, but lacks the proper weight and brakes to control the boat during an emergency stop. My boat is also 2,500lbs with a double axle trailer weighing in near 1,000lbs. I put that same boat behind my 1 ton Chevrolet 4x4 truck, and I don't even know its there. The downside, I get 11 mpg.:ballchain: If you insist on pulling your boat with a small vehicle, I would strongly suggest trailer brakes. Trailer brakes on older trailers are drum style if you have them, but I'm guessing you don't. Just boogie on down to your local trailer shop and look into the conversion. It can be done! :cocksure: Safety is more important than power!
 

Tnstratofam

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I second getting trailer brakes added no matter what suv you choose. You should try to do some research on vehicle longevity when towing. I've driven an older ( Issuzu ) version of the pilot, and it drove and handled probably close to your jeep. My concern on the newer versions is they are much more car like in suspension, and not in an impala kind of towing way either. As for the Saturn I'de be concerned about the fact that the company has been shut down for several years now, and that could mean trouble with repairs down the road. A good tow vehicle and good fuel economy are not usually traits one finds in most suvs. I would consider stepping up to a 1/2 ton super cab maybe. The Admiral and I are truck people though so I'm biased a bit.
 

keith2k455

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You can take a look at Nissan too. My wifes AWD '09 murano towed my approx 3000# double jetskis when we had them. Towed ok, cvt was nice, but emergency stops got scary because of its short wheelbase. I think she still sees 25 mpg if its kept at 65 or below.

I will say that after we got our tow vehicle ('03 suburban size Cadillac) I'll never mess around with towing behind a midsize again if I can help it. If you can just swing a third vehicle for towing, that may be best
 

64osby

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I would suggest you take the boat to the scales and find out how much it really weighs. Boats seem to weigh a little more when you fill them with gas and gear.

Trailer brakes as others have stated. Also what ever you get make sure it has a tow package. Better breaks, trans cooler, ...........
 

KD4UPL

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On many vehicles the tow rating assumes an empty tow vehicle. When you start adding people and gear to the vehicle the tow rating decreases. I'd weigh the boat loaded with fuel and gear and ready to go. I'll bet it's heavier than you think.
A good tow vehicle and one that gets good fuel mileage are opposites.
 

KDMatt

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Aug 8, 2009
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Thanks for the replies already, wow!

@ Chad

What all do I need to do a conversion anyway? I haven't dug too deeply, but a bit of googling is returning results with stuff like this:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...ci_sku=21543&gclid=CK77jfCEpMMCFQeRaQodLDsAMg

Basically I'm going to be replacing the hub assemblies on the trailers, right? What about connectors on the vehicle itself? This is new territory for me, but I'm definitely interested in safety!! I didn't spend all last summer rebuilding the boat just to wreck it on the interstate! :p

@NY Bob

Ahh, 4500 lbs, gotcha! That's good to know. That must be why RCR anecdotally labeled the Pilot as a "vehicle for pulling boats" as its one explicit function!

@ tnstratofam

mm... but wouldn't the Saturn effectively be identical to lots of other vehicles in GM's lineup already -- many of the derivations of which are still in production? I'm not an expert on them (I was on the marketing/sales side of the car world for 5 years, not the dealer end) ... I would assume that given that the mechanicals were built by Honda, placed into a platform that was used for other vehicles, finding parts for them shouldn't be stupendously difficult... maybe vehicle specific things like seats, or consoles, or body parts, but I'd have to think that the guts of it aren't hard to come by.

I'm not SUPER concerned about the car-like suspension I suppose? We towed this rig many moons ago with my grandmother's Lexus RX300 (which has a much shorter wheelbase AND a luxury car-like suspension) and it didn't seem to be a huge issue then. Back in the 80's my uncle used to pull it routinely with an S10 blazer with the 4.3 liter v6. I would assume the impact of a boat on the vehicle's suspension has more to do with tongue weight than the actual weight of the trailer. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@ keith

The Murano was definitely on my radar as somewhat of a Nissan loyalist (I've got an old Datsun in my garage that I noodle around with), but I was a bit turned off by how many issues people have had with those early Nissan CVT's ... Nissan has apparently put every Murano under an extended warranty to cover the abundance of transmission problems people started having past the 80,000 mile mark. It's definitely the most luxurious and most stylish of the vehicles that we've considered using to replace the Jeep, but I wasn't sure I felt comfortable with that kind of question mark hanging over its head. I'd love to own an additional Nissan, no doubt, but I'm not sold on the transmission holding up long-term.

At the moment this decision is based in trying to consolidate our vehicles (I'm a guy with too many toys) ... so we're trying to eliminate the need to have BOTH a mid-90's econobox that's awful in the winter, AND a mid-90's SUV that gets horrible gas mileage and is only moderately powerful enough to pull the boat, to move to a '05/'06 vehicle that's half-way decent to perform both functions and free up a bit of space. I'm a lucky guy that my "Admiral" is willing to back me on this move, so I don't want to squander it if I can help it.

@64osby

How do I find a scale for this? I've heard rumors that scrapyards will do this.

@KD4UPL

You're right in that power and economy are not typically good bedfellows, and it would be one thing if I were trying to find a tow vehicle with econobox fuel economy, but as it stands I'm not. I don't think 250ish horsepower with 25ish mpg highway (unloaded) is an unreasonable goal, not given some of the major strides that have been made in automotive engineering in the last 10 or 15 years.

Thanks again for the replies so far, guys!
 

64osby

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Scrap yards and gravel pits around me do it for free. Truck stops usually charge.

If they allow, you can measure the boat when it is still hooked to the vehicle and then when off the hitch. The difference will be your tongue weight. (The tow vehicle is off the scale.)
 

Tnstratofam

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As for the Pilot's suspension with it being a shorter wheel base it will be harder to handle when stopping, and if on a winding road. A stiffer suspension is more stable when towing for me. That's a personal preference. As for the Saturn I'm not sure they shared anything with the other GM brands. That's what made them unique, and would be my concern. If they share driveline and suspension parts with other current or former GM brand suvs or trucks then I would be okay with one.
 

Chad Flaugher

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I was in the market for a second truck (For my Landscape Maintenance business) last spring... I spent a couple months sifting through craigslist ads and found a surprising amount of 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks in reasonable shape under 3k. Some were even under 2k. If you have the doe, and the place to park it, a third vehicle would be my vote. If you can find an early 90's truck with heavy duty brakes, suspension, and a V8, no trailer mods would be necessary. Trust me, if you could pull your boat just once with a 1 ton truck, you'd never go back.
 

Chad Flaugher

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As far as Trailer mods go if you go that route, find a trailer shop. Hands on good advise. You'd need a trailer brake kit for the vehicle that fits under the dash, and some wire harness additions. I own 3 trailers, and each one has a different set up. You'd really have to know what you're looking at to find salvage parts, but that would cut costs down... Keep in mind with trailer breaks, that you want the trailer to do most of the work when stopping. Keep us posted!
 

redneck joe

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here is my thread on a trailer rehab - added brakes to both axles. If I can do it as an aging fat middle management guy - anyone can. I went electric, could do surge which doesn't require truck wiring. If you do choose to do it (and I would regardless i'd forgotten how much better/safer it feels) as you can see in my thread some really good assistance from the folks on here.


http://forums.iboats.com/forum/gener...-trailer-rehab



I like the old truck idea and as others have said once you pull with something big you will never be the same but what about a Traverse?

The 2013 Chevrolet Traverse is about as close as you can get in size to a big SUV without going over completely to a truck-based platform. That being said, despite its large size and its exceptional passenger capacity (up to eight), the Chevrolet Traverse conducts itself far more like a car than one would think from behind the wheel. This is true even when taking into account the Traverse's 5,200 lbs tow rating, which is made possible not only by its long wheelbase but also the 288 horsepower (with optional dual exhaust), 3.6-liter V-6 engine under its hood that is also rated to produce 270 lb-ft of torque.


2013-Chevy-Traverse.jpg
 
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H20Rat

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mm... but wouldn't the Saturn effectively be identical to lots of other vehicles in GM's lineup already -- many of the derivations of which are still in production? I'm not an expert on them (I was on the marketing/sales side of the car world for 5 years, not the dealer end) ... I would assume that given that the mechanicals were built by Honda, placed into a platform that was used for other vehicles, finding parts for them shouldn't be stupendously difficult...

You would think that, but outside of some electrical components, (switches, relays, etc...) There is surprisingly little shared, especially from saturn. The engine itself (not the ECU) is Honda, but the most common transmission is shared with a couple other GM products (none in production any more, but that is to be expected)

Anyway, that vehicle is a good choice for infrequent towing but mostly family hauling. It wouldn't be an upgrade in the towing department from what you have now.
 

KDMatt

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@ Joe

Duuuude. Sounds like you had one heck of a learning experience redoing your trailer. I just went over your thread. Jeez, what a pain dude! I bet it feels good to have it all buttoned up. For my single axle trailer, do you think electric or hydraulic brakes would be the better way to go? I feel like electric brakes would be simpler, but I don't know anything yet. The Traverse is tempting, but I think we're going to struggle to find one in our price range... might be just a bit too new! We've been considering '05 and '06 Saturns for a reason, haha. Thanks for the input though. If you've got recommendations on good places to find complete brake kits for my trailer, that would be awesome, otherwise I'm just going to start looking around town.

@smokingcrater

Well I know that with the Honda V6, the Vue also had the Honda transmission, for better or for worse.

The primary purpose of this vehicle will be the serve as daily driver for my other half, year round (AWD is a big plus in MN winters), but still occasionally take the boat to the lake every other weekend in the summer. (She's probably also going to beg for the keys to my Trans Am in the summer, but that's another story) Whatever we get isn't going to be see long road trips on the interstate more than once, if not twice a year. I'd like to think that between replacing the trailer hubs and jumping up another 50/60 horsepower and 50/60 lb/ft of torque my towing experience stands to improve either way.

@Chad "and a place to park it" ... that's really the rub there, if I'm honest. I live in a first ring suburb and I don't have limitless space for cars. At the moment we've got the two cars, and we're trying to conflate two into one to save parking and insurance.
 

keith2k455

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So, for the Murano, every one before '08 has the extra factory warranty, our '09 does not. They do have a 30k mile maintenance interval on the cvt. I was worried about the cvt before we bought it, but the wife liked it and I knew we'd eventually get a third vehicle to tow. Nice thing is the cvt never has to hunt for a gear. I'm not a Nissan enthusiast by any means, but I think combines have used cvt trans for many years and ours has done the job fine, even though it's been towing retired for about 2 years.
 

redneck joe

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etrailer was pretty good and have a very very good website for figuring out what you need. mostly good luck with them on cust service as well.

as far as electric v hydraulic your best bet would be to start a thread on ginger v mary ann. Of course that won't help but you get the point and i vote mary ann.
 
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KDMatt

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@ Joe

lmao at the point about ginger vs. maryanne - ok ok point taken my friend. I'm leaning toward electric, personally, just so I can avoid the hassle of dealing with brakefluid and bleeding and all of that crap down the line. Also the hydraulic kits make it look like I need to change the tongue/hitch part of the trailer, which I'm not eager to do either.

@ Keith

I'm glad to hear you've had such great success with your Murano. I'd be open to one I suppose, but in our price range we'd be hunting for an '05 or '04 maybe, and at that vintage I'm not sure how much faith I can rightfully place in the previous owner(s) to have fastidiously cared for the transmission as you and your wife clearly have. Ya know?
 

444

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I towed a boat a little lighter than yours with my 94 ford explorer. 4.0 v6, around 150hp and a 5sp manual. It towed fine, was just a bit underpowered but at least with the stick shift you don't have an auto trans that's hunting for gears.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but anything big enough to tow your boat is going to struggle to top 20mpg in the real world. AWD vehicles are notorioiusly heavy on fuel. You're going to spend a whole bunch of $ upgrading vehicles and gain 2mpg out of it.
 

jkust

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I like the Traverse Idea. Of the Buick, GMC and Chevy variety of Traverse-like vehicles, the Chevy can be gotten for a steal and even with relatively low miles even in an LTZ AWD. The AWD mileage won't quite touch your 25mpg requirement even on long, all highway, non trailering trips though. I've seen extraordinarily mixed owner reviews of the early and mid years of these vehicles (especially the earliest Acadias that came out a couple years earlier than the Traverse)...maybe more negative reviews for a certain few issues than any other popular car I've seen. They fixed many of the issues in the newer ones however. You mentioned towing at one time with an 80's Blazer as well with a 4.3 in it. The blazer is on body on frame vehicle and so other than the short wheel base, was relatively capable in an 80/90's way while the 4.3 has always been a venerable power plant as it still is in boats today. If I was in a corner and didn't have a big budget, and cared less about mpg but wanted a bit of power and towing prowess, I'd look at any of the Chevy Trailblazer type vehicles. For towing capability at an extremely low price, they are hard to beat and are plentiful albeit dated. You can get from an inline 6 all the way up to a 400hp v8, locking rear diff, up to a 4.11 rear end, stability control, 4wd or AWD depending on the package it has. They will tow up to 6,500 lbs depending on which source you look at with the drive train being the week point because the 400hp model has the same tow rating as the 100hp less v8 option (even though the 400hp model has some more beefy components).
 
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