Is AWD worth the upgrade on a new SUV?

cdnNick

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
132
Yes, we have thought about what happens if we want to move up to a bigger boat. I think the 18' will be good for a while (3-5 years at least), we don't think we would be going any bigger then a 19' and depending on the brand we should still be fine with the 5000lbs limit. A Regal would be out as they are heavy compared to most.

I think I am leaning towards finding something that's few years old instead of going new but of course that makes it harder to find one with a factory installed tow package as some have upgraded coolers and suspension like the Durango. I do like the fact that the V6 Durango has a +6000lbs capacity and the V8 is over 7000 but they are tough to find used.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,481
As I suspected for a long time.......the towing rating system was a bunch of BS until now.............


SAE J2807: The new common standard for tow ratings

by Richard Russell

If you are into pickups, you've seen the ads or are aware of the bragging among manufacturers about tow ratings.
Ford, Dodge (Ram) and GM (Chevy and GMC) all claim their trucks are the biggest, the strongest the most capable, etc.
What you may not realize, is that you can't compare these numbers.

Until now, there has been no common ground or no agreed-upon common standard. Each manufacturer has designed and runs its own tests.
As a new truck is introduced, the ads boast of a best-in-class tow rating. Then a competitor comes out with a new truck with a new "˜best-in-class"™ rating.

This game of leap-frog has gone on for decades. Getting these three competitors to agree on the terms for a common methodology to standardize and validate tow ratings has been like herding cats.
The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), the professional association that sets technical standards for the automotive industry has derived a common standard SAE” J2807.

It was worked out in consultation with all major vehicle manufacturers and all have agreed to abide by it starting with the 2015 model year.
SAE J2807 involves a precise method of testing. In order to claim a rating for the number of pounds the truck can tow, the manufacturers must subject it to acceleration, braking and other procedures.

There are literally dozens of tests involved, each with specific procedures. For example, in order to be certified to tow a given weight, the vehicle must be able to accelerate from rest to a certain speed in a given amount of distance.
The new standard spells out the precise procedure for arriving the two most important and until now misleading ratings: maximum gross combination weight (GCWR) for a vehicle and its trailer and the maximum permissible trailer weight rating (TWR).
The tow ratings take into account the five factors that determine a vehicle's towing performance: torque, cooling, durability, braking and handling.
The standards spell out the frontal area of the trailer, the hitch/tongue design and how the weight it is distributed on its axles.
Until now the companies were not including the driver, passenger or any other items in the weight total. The new standard requires the addition of a driver and passenger in the calculation.
It also requires the manufacturer to include the weight of any optional equipment so a heavily-optioned vehicle will have a lower rating than a bare-bones base model.
In order to claim a given rating, SAE J2807 requires (all ratings in English units):

ACCELERATION
Vehicles with single rear wheels to accelerate from rest to 30 miles per hour in 12 seconds or less.
Dual rear wheels in 14 seconds or less.
Dual rear wheels and a GVWR of more than 13,000 pounds in 16 seconds or less.
Accelerate from rest to 60 mph in 30, 35 and 40 seconds respectively.
Accelerate from 40-60 mph in 18, 21 and 24 seconds respectively.

LAUNCH ON GRADE
Vehicle must repeatedly move from rest for a distance of 16 feet on a 12 per cent grade five times in succession in both forward and reverse direction within five minutes.

CLIMBING HILLS
Vehicle must maintain a minimum cruising speed, ranging from 30-40 mph (depending on number of rear wheels and GVWR as per acceleration above) while climbing ˜Davis Damn grade,” a notorious 12-mile stretch of highway between Arizona and Nevada. This grade varies from three to seven per cent, averaging five per cent.
During this test, conducted at a minimum ambient temperature of 100 degrees F, the A/C system must be running on the coldest setting without recirculation and at the highest fan speed. This test can be simulated on a chassis dynomomenter.

BRAKING
The vehicle must be capable of stopping within 35-80 feet or less (as per number of rear wheels and GVWR above) from 20 miles per hour without the use of trailer brakes while remaining within a standard 11.5-foot wide lane.
The parking brake must hold the combined vehicle and trailer on a 12 per cent grade up and down.
There are other tests specifying the degree of understeer and the amount of flex at the hitch attachment point.
Starting with the 2015 model year, all light truck manufacturers have agreed to utilize the new common standard SAE J2807.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/wheelsn...or-tow-ratings
 
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ihearth2o

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
187
A lot more goes into towing than tow rating. Make sure you take into account other ratings too, i.e. axles, tires, payload, GVWR, GCWR, wheelbase, etc. I personally think tow ratings are as much marketing numbers as they are "performance" ratings.
 

mattb100

Cadet
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
21
My wife has a 13 Honda Pilot 3.5 v6, auto w/ "4WD" and factory tow pkg. Tow rating is 4500 lbs, can seat 8, just cant do both at the same time. The more that's in it, the less you can tow with it. In either application it is a great vehicle for her, we camp and boat several times a year and she pulls the boat and i get the camper in my 03 Sierra 1500 HD. We are in central OH, it does good in snow, gets about 22 mpg combined and is a great vehicle for road trips, lots of cup holders storage boxes, USB, blue tooth etc-etc. She traded in a Buick Rainier that was a great TV with the 5.3 AWD, gas hog. our boat is a 95 Ebbtide 19' bow rider 2700 lb, 800 lb trailer and it pulls pretty well around these parts, no problem at the ramp, if so there's "4WD". Some of the bigger hills in Ky/Tn might slow her down a bit but most of our trips are in OH. Chevy/GMC have brought back the Colorado/Canyon mid size trucks this year and might be an option with crew cab, just wont hold 7-8 people. "4WD" only works in 1-2 gear and auto shifts out as speed increases, but she don't take it muddin so it works for us.
 

Illinoid

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
137
Would it be too much to ask of the dealer to let you test drive the vehicle under the conditions you will use it...pull the boat to the ramp and back and see how comfortable you are driving it?
 

bruceb58

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
30,476
Would it be too much to ask of the dealer to let you test drive the vehicle under the conditions you will use it...pull the boat to the ramp and back and see how comfortable you are driving it?
There is no way that would ever happen.
 

bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
Would it be too much to ask of the dealer to let you test drive the vehicle under the conditions you will use it...pull the boat to the ramp and back and see how comfortable you are driving it?

Just hang out at your boat ramp and observe what others are towing with and ask questions. No need for overkill,your wife will wind up hating both the boat and the daily driver.
 

smassey22180

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 15, 2013
Messages
210
Would it be too much to ask of the dealer to let you test drive the vehicle under the conditions you will use it...pull the boat to the ramp and back and see how comfortable you are driving it?


It may not even need to be a boat ramp test. I find merging onto a highway on an uphill on ramp to be the most challenging :).
 

ihearth2o

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
187
Would it be too much to ask of the dealer to let you test drive the vehicle under the conditions you will use it...pull the boat to the ramp and back and see how comfortable you are driving it?
If you asked the dealer if you could take the car home for a day so you could tow your rig, not sure if that would fly but whenever I buy a used car, I always request that my mechanic check it out. A couple times, a dealership has refused (at which time, I promptly walked away) but for the most part, they will allow you to take the car for a day or so. They will likely require a small deposit but it's refundable. Just make sure the dealership includes your deposit towards your payment for the car if you decide to purchase it. One dealership tried to snake me out of my deposit. Wouldn't have even noticed if I didn't have them give me a line item accounting of charges before agreeing on the price. If I really felt like I was pushing the limits with a potential tow vehicle purchase, I might hook everything up and take it to a scale. You better be ready to assume liability though if anything happened.
 

NYBo

Admiral
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
7,107
As I suspected for a long time.......the towing rating system was a bunch of BS until now.............


SAE J2807: The new common standard for tow ratings

by Richard Russell

If you are into pickups, you've seen the ads or are aware of the bragging among manufacturers about tow ratings.
Ford, Dodge (Ram) and GM (Chevy and GMC) all claim their trucks are the biggest, the strongest the most capable, etc.
What you may not realize, is that you can't compare these numbers.

Until now, there has been no common ground or no agreed-upon common standard. Each manufacturer has designed and runs its own tests.
As a new truck is introduced, the ads boast of a best-in-class tow rating. Then a competitor comes out with a new truck with a new "˜best-in-class"™ rating.

This game of leap-frog has gone on for decades. Getting these three competitors to agree on the terms for a common methodology to standardize and validate tow ratings has been like herding cats.
The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), the professional association that sets technical standards for the automotive industry has derived a common standard SAE” J2807.

It was worked out in consultation with all major vehicle manufacturers and all have agreed to abide by it starting with the 2015 model year.
SAE J2807 involves a precise method of testing. In order to claim a rating for the number of pounds the truck can tow, the manufacturers must subject it to acceleration, braking and other procedures.

There are literally dozens of tests involved, each with specific procedures. For example, in order to be certified to tow a given weight, the vehicle must be able to accelerate from rest to a certain speed in a given amount of distance.
The new standard spells out the precise procedure for arriving the two most important and until now misleading ratings: maximum gross combination weight (GCWR) for a vehicle and its trailer and the maximum permissible trailer weight rating (TWR).
The tow ratings take into account the five factors that determine a vehicle's towing performance: torque, cooling, durability, braking and handling.
The standards spell out the frontal area of the trailer, the hitch/tongue design and how the weight it is distributed on its axles.
Until now the companies were not including the driver, passenger or any other items in the weight total. The new standard requires the addition of a driver and passenger in the calculation.
It also requires the manufacturer to include the weight of any optional equipment so a heavily-optioned vehicle will have a lower rating than a bare-bones base model.
In order to claim a given rating, SAE J2807 requires (all ratings in English units):

ACCELERATION
Vehicles with single rear wheels to accelerate from rest to 30 miles per hour in 12 seconds or less.
Dual rear wheels in 14 seconds or less.
Dual rear wheels and a GVWR of more than 13,000 pounds in 16 seconds or less.
Accelerate from rest to 60 mph in 30, 35 and 40 seconds respectively.
Accelerate from 40-60 mph in 18, 21 and 24 seconds respectively.

LAUNCH ON GRADE
Vehicle must repeatedly move from rest for a distance of 16 feet on a 12 per cent grade five times in succession in both forward and reverse direction within five minutes.

CLIMBING HILLS
Vehicle must maintain a minimum cruising speed, ranging from 30-40 mph (depending on number of rear wheels and GVWR as per acceleration above) while climbing ˜Davis Damn grade,” a notorious 12-mile stretch of highway between Arizona and Nevada. This grade varies from three to seven per cent, averaging five per cent.
During this test, conducted at a minimum ambient temperature of 100 degrees F, the A/C system must be running on the coldest setting without recirculation and at the highest fan speed. This test can be simulated on a chassis dynomomenter.

BRAKING
The vehicle must be capable of stopping within 35-80 feet or less (as per number of rear wheels and GVWR above) from 20 miles per hour without the use of trailer brakes while remaining within a standard 11.5-foot wide lane.
The parking brake must hold the combined vehicle and trailer on a 12 per cent grade up and down.
There are other tests specifying the degree of understeer and the amount of flex at the hitch attachment point.
Starting with the 2015 model year, all light truck manufacturers have agreed to utilize the new common standard SAE J2807.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/wheelsn...or-tow-ratings
My usual tow vehicle is a Dodge Dakota 4x4 with the 3.9L and automatic trans. I'm not sure the Dak could pass all these tests - without the boat hooked up.:redface:
 

bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
My usual tow vehicle is a Dodge Dakota 4x4 with the 3.9L and automatic trans. I'm not sure the Dak could pass all these tests - without the boat hooked up.:redface:

SAE J2807: is intended only to be used to make fair comparisons on tow ratings using a set of standard criteria. It does NOT determine actual tow capacity!
 

ihearth2o

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 18, 2014
Messages
187
SAE J2807: is intended only to be used to make fair comparisons on tow ratings using a set of standard criteria. It does NOT determine actual tow capacity!

You sure about that?
The SAE J2807 Scope statement said:
This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 13 000 lb GVWR. It is recommended that the performance requirements within be adopted for all vehicles with model year designation 2013 or later.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,481
SAE J2807: is intended only to be used to make fair comparisons on tow ratings using a set of standard criteria. It does NOT determine actual tow capacity!
The specification gives very specific performance criteria for acceleration, braking, hitch and chassis flex. The maximum tow capacity is the point of failure to met one of the criteria.

From an engineering point, it cant get any clearer than that. From the marketing side, expect lots of sub notes, small print and extenuating circumstances in support of one's automotive masculinity.......lol
 
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bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
The specification gives very specific performance criteria for acceleration, braking, hitch and chassis flex. The maximum tow capacity is the point of failure to met one of the criteria.

I don't think the farmer who is using his truck to pull up stumps or hauling cattle to market is worried about acceleration!
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,481
I don't think the farmer who is using his truck to pull up stumps or hauling cattle to market is worried about acceleration!

Only out of ignorance of the laws of physics......
Force, Mass and Acceleration are inversely proportional......
 

bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
Only out of ignorance of the laws of physics......
Force, Mass and Acceleration are inversely proportional......

True on the law of physics but your missing my point. A specified acceleration ramp time has nothing to do with drawbar pull. That equation works only with a set of standards. While a 75 hp farm tractor cannot accelerate 0-30 in 12 seconds it it still rated to pull a 10,000 lb trailer. The accelerations standards in SAE J2807 are an arbitrary number. Having said that I do agree that a set of standards is needed in the marketplace for comparison purposes.
 

cdnNick

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
132
I just wanted to give a small update to this thread, it was great and got me thinking a lot about finding a balance between our everyday needs and the ability to tow a boat. My wife and kids loved the pontoon boat we rented in Florida, wife wants a pontoon now but that's not going to happen lol. So we are still looking for a 18' bowrider, boat show season is almost here so hopefully there will be some new listings for used boats.

I have a short list for a tow vehicle that includes:
2011-12 Pathfinder (still body on frame)
2011-12 Toyota Highlander (top pick for daily driver, probably weakest at towing though)
2011-12 Dodge Durango (roomy and good towing capacity with the v6, also considering the v8 find be the best balance but hard to find)
2009-2011 GMC Yukon (probably best SUV for towing but kind of big for everyday use, my wife isn't even sure she would drive it)

I've been trying to find some peoples experiences with towing boats with these vehicle but it's mostly campers which I'm not sure is a good comparison, I would assume a boat of the same or lower weight would be easier to tow then a big square trailer attached to the back.
 

Slip Away

Lieutenant
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
1,431
My thoughts:
Pathfinder-No because of CVT transmission
Highlander- adequate for an 18ft. boat, but just barely. Nice vehicle.
Durango- Get the lifetime extended warranty ($3,000) you WILL need it
GMC Yukon- best tow vehicle, and offers ability to tow bigger boat when you upgrade (and you will)
 

Tail_Gunner

Admiral
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
The toyota is by far the most rugged and reliable tow vehicle of that grouping when eqipped with the tow group, as stated eailer if the admiral wants this and you want the boat...you figure it out..and that from a 20yr plus ford guy...It may be tough to find one with factory tow however.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...rXUlrK--T5nRew
 
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cdnNick

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
132
2013 was when they introduced the CVT transmission on the Pathfinder, that's what we are only looking at 2012 and older.

I'm on the fence with the Durango, we own two Dodges already and I haven't been too happy or impressed with them. Sure they get us around but they have lots of issues and annoyances. I've become an expert at doing brake jobs on my Caravan.

The Highlander was our top choice for a daily driver because of the room, features and reliability. The big problem with the Highlander is I don't think we could get a bigger boat down the road without having to upgrade the tow vehicle again. This might not matter as we might be happy with an 18' but something I have to consider at the very least.
 
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