Help with electric winch

[RickyRick100]

Hello, I'm getting ready to purchase an electric winch and I need some help regarding size of winch and
manufacturer. If I'm figuring this out correctly my total weight is approx 4000 lbs. I have a 1988 Chris Craft Sea Hawk 215 which weighs approx 2500 lbs, boat has a 200 Evinrude which is approx 500 lbs, boat holds 80 gallons of gas which is approx 500 lbs and I added another 500 lbs for gear which totals 4000 lbs. Am I doing this correct? If so what number of pull capacity should I be looking for. I am reading a few different articles on line that say 1/2 my total weight (2000) is sufficient for pull weight. Then another article tells me to also add my trailer weight (I'm not sure why). I also see a wide range in price from $160 up to $479. I saw a TRAC Outdoor which has a 3500 pull weight with 7000 boat weight which is more then what I need but I like to be safer then sorry and it's only $160. Then I see a Power Winch 712 for $379 and a Dutton Lainson for $479. I understand you get what you pay for but this is such a big range. Are we just talking name recognition here??? Is TRAC a good company? I also see electric winches refurbished for under $100 (same 3500 pull / 7000 boat weight) - Is this a good idea??? I live on the water and have a boat dock out back so I don't see it being used but a couple times a month when I pull the boat to trailer it to go off shore. Any recommendations??? I am new to boating but learning very fast. Any help/tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[kmarine]

Re: Help with electric winch

I am not sure if an electric winch is your best option unless you have a physical dificulty with the hand winch. I have have expierienced more dificilty with batteries,including theft, allong with bow eye damage from electric winches than I like to see. It depends on your trailer, I prefer to start retrieval with the bunks just below the waterline, and then back down if it is too dificult to hand crank. I recomend a two speed hand crank winch which I retrieve my 8000 lb boat with much easier than the electric winch that sits on my garage floor today.

 

[RickyRick100]

Re: Help with electric winch

Thanks for the response kmarine. I'm going to do a little more research.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Help with electric winch

Keep in mind the Winch rating specification is from the marketing people that want to get you to buy their winch.

The engineering department might explain it like this....
A typical set of bunk are going to produce about 10% of the boats weight in friction. (Coefficient of Friction.)
Pulling up a 20 degree slope is going to add another 35%. 45% Total.

The winch is rated with a nearly empty spool at the beginning of the pull.
As the spool fills the pull speed goes up and the pull force goes down.
At the end of the winch-in, when the boat reaches the bow eye, the winch spool is full and the boat has the maximum drag as it is no longer floating.
At this point a typical winch will have half (50%) of it's rated pull capacity.

So the boat is producing 45% of it's weight in resistance and the winch is at 50% of it's capacity.
A winch rated for the actual loaded boat weight (100%) will just barely do the job.
If the ramp is steeper, operation may not be successful.

Look closely at the Pull speed.
The less expensive winches will have a smaller motor, a higher gear ratio, and a very slow pull rate.
The more expensive winches will have larger motor and a faster pull. You get what you pay for!
The advertised speed is typically stated for a full spool with no load. Not a realistic situation.
A winch with a 2 foot per minute pull speed might have you thinking it would be a lot faster cranking it by hand!
A 10 foot winch job is going to take 5 minutes!

Obtain a winch with at least the fully loaded boat weigh plus a little more (120 -150%) and you will not regret it!

 

[RickyRick100]

Re: Help with electric winch

Thanks UncleWillie. Checked out the link at the D & L website and have a lot clearer picture of the numbers/ratios. At the recommendation of kmarine above, I was reviewing the two speed hand crank winch which I'm not sure if this is the way I want to go. I guess it boils down to personal preference. I did launch the boat today and had to pull it out of the water and the winch that was on the trailer was pretty beat-up as I knew it needed to be replaced. As I was cranking the boat the gears stripped about 2' from being locked in. Plus it was a battle cranking that boat up on the trailer. As mentioned above, I live on the water so it won't be in and out a whole lot but I'm liking the simplicity (or laziness) of having the electric winch especially if I'm coming back to shore after a full day of boating. Like you mentioned above - the thing to do is get a winch that will pull 120% - 150% more then what I need which I think is what I'm going to do. Thanks again.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Help with electric winch

The Two speed manual winch is not a bad idea.

With an electric winch getting power to it is not a trivial issue.
You can not just plug it into a lighter outlet or even the 7 pin trailer connector.
The winch will draw in the many 10's of amps range and will need a dedicated high current connector with dedicated jumper cable grade wiring directly to the vehicle battery. Budget another $50 if it is not included with the winch.

The two speed manual winch allows you to quickly recover a lot of cable at the beginning of the pull and then switch to a slower but easier pull at the end.

Again, overkill is not a bad idea for the manual winch also.
A 12:1 ratio makes one handed cranking possible.

As for the lazy aspect of the job.... The two speed manual might just allow it to be easy enough for the admiral or at least the kids to do the cranking if closely supervised!

 

[JimS123]

Re: Help with electric winch

A Powerwinch is BETTER than sliced bread. Be sure to buy one with a double line capability (pulley) then if it sounds like its straining just use the double line.

Next buy the QD bracket. Stow the winch at the ramp and theft isn't an issue. All you need to do is run a cable to the battery. Piece of cake - done it several times.

I know about Powerwinch brand - its all I ever had. I have read that there are better ones, but they are price prohibitive in my mind. Never heard of Trac.

The only use for a manual winch is as a backup if the power winch dies or the battery goes dead. Hasn't happened in 28 years - I don't know if my manual winch even works any more....LOL.

PS - I do use a manual winch on a couple of my little guys, but they weigh less than 400 lbs.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Help with electric winch

I'm with Jim. Just get a Powerwinch and don't overthink it. They have already done the math and have boat size recommendations. They have the correct wiring harness and hook-ups.

If you have a roller trailer you will love it.

I have used the crank on a power winch and it works, but pushing the button is better.

I've never heard of winches being stolen at a day-use ramp but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Thare are plenty of easy ways to secure it to the trailer, just enough to slow down (and thus stop) the casual thief.

 

[RickyRick100]

Re: Help with electric winch

kmarine, unclewillie, jims and homecookin thanks for your responses - handshake.

ok, so it's definitely overkill but I had to do it because it was only a $31. You never know but a larger boat may be in my future - LOL. I should have purchased the Dutton-Lainson for $297 that has a 3000 lb pull capacity with a 10,200 lb rolling load capacity which would have been fine but for $328 I purchased the Dutton-Lainson that has a 4500 lb pull capacity with a 15,200 lb rolling load capacity. For $31 how can I not purchase the next size winch? Again, I am new to boating and I'm learning as I go but it's only $31. Did I waste $31??? Probably so? Is it overkill??? I would say so. But what do I know. Still learning...Heck, what can you buy for $31 now a days anyway? 7 or 8 gallons of gas. Sheeesh, if you drink coffee the way I do - what is it 5 or 6 cups at Starbucks???
(trying to talk myself into justifying why I did it)...Also, I wanted to make sure I didn't have any issues pulling the boat out of the water. Anyways, thanks again guys for your responses and any comments are welcomed.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Help with electric winch

No, you didn't overdo it. That winch will last you a lifetime with several boats.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Help with electric winch

I hope you have a lot time on your hands.

The #4500 unit gets it's pulling power using a double line pulley configuration. Your looking at a empty reel speed of 18 inches per minute and a full spool speed of 24 inches per minute. To put things into perspective, my #4200 Rule Winch is 21.6 feet per minute using straight cable.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Help with electric winch

Be sure to report back after you use it a couple of times.
We'd be interested in your experience, Pros and Cons.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Help with electric winch

I hope you have a lot time on your hands.

The #4500 unit gets it's pulling power using a double line pulley configuration. Your looking at a empty reel speed of 18 inches per minute and a full spool speed of 24 inches per minute. To put things into perspective, my #4200 Rule Winch is 21.6 feet per minute using straight cable.

My PW 712 loads the boat with a single cable in probably 45 seconds (I'm guessing - I never measured it). And that's on a roller trailer where I'm pulling the full 19' of the boat.

Is a D-L that much slower?

 

[dingbat]

Re: Help with electric winch

My PW 712 loads the boat with a single cable in probably 45 seconds (I'm guessing - I never measured it). And that's on a roller trailer where I'm pulling the full 19' of the boat.

Is a D-L that much slower?

A DL has to retrieve twice the amount of cable for a given pull so it is always going to take twice as long by nature of the beast.

In this case the reduction in speed is compounded by the gearbox in use. Dutton is using a smaller motor with a conventional 570: 1 gear ratio on the output. My winch uses a larger motor and a 3-stage planetary gearbox. Big difference when it comes to torque and speed. Big difference in price as well. Almost 50% more.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Help with electric winch

A DL has to retrieve twice the amount of cable for a given pull so it is always going to take twice as long by nature of the beast.

In this case the reduction in speed is compounded by the gearbox in use. Dutton is using a smaller motor with a conventional 570: 1 gear ratio on the output. My winch uses a larger motor and a 3-stage planetary gearbox. Big difference when it comes to torque and speed. Big difference in price as well. Almost 50% more.

What's 50% more? Yours?

The DL costs more than the PW, according to the OP.

I understand the double time for a double cable. In my case it would take a minute and a half if i used the double cable. Still not unreasonable. When I was cranking it took longer than that, considering the time I had to stop and catch my breath.....LOL.

Yours is probably the best. Sounds like DL is not so good. Maybe the PW is a compromise between price and speed.

My PW has lasted me 28 years so I can attest to its durability. Of course, they may make them in China today so who's to say how good they are now.

 

[RickyRick100]

Re: Help with electric winch

UncleWillie, I will definitely report back. It will be a couple of weeks as I will be traveling this weekend for 10 days and unfortunately I won't be home when the winch arrives but I will keep you posted.

JimS, I did some research and the DL is slower but for the 4500 lb pull ratio and the 15,200 lb rolling max capacity it is overkill for what I need. My Chris Craft is 21' and 4000 lb at max but considering I'm going to float it up on the trailer half way or more - I don't think I'll need to pull it in more than 8 feet. May take a couple of minutes but shouldn't be that bad considering with the wife and kids - I probably won't even realize the time.

Dingbat - I was torn between the PW 712 and the LD. I actually considered the PW 912 as well. As UncleWillie explained in post 4 - I was looking for a low gear ratio as the LD is high at 570:1. But as big as the winch is and overkill for what I need - I don't see the gear ratio being a big issue. I looked at a lot of sites and found the LD for a great price at easternmarine. Paid $328 and most sites I visited were $400 and up. Below is the link.

www.easternmarine.com/DUTTON-LAINSON-Electric-Winches/

Thanks again guys.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Help with electric winch

What's 50% more? Yours?

The DL costs more than the PW, according to the OP.

I understand the double time for a double cable. In my case it would take a minute and a half if i used the double cable. Still not unreasonable. When I was cranking it took longer than that, considering the time I had to stop and catch my breath.....LOL.

Yours is probably the best. Sounds like DL is not so good. Maybe the PW is a compromise between price and speed.

My Rule winch was over $600 when I bought it 10 years ago.

Average pull ~8-10' Can be as bad as 20-24' if I get caught with the tide is out bad or a issues with sand on the ramp. Can't see taking 4-5 minutes to get the boat on the trailer under normal conditions. Takes less than 30 seconds now. Could you imagine the looks I'd get if I took me close to 15 minutes to winch the boat on the trailer? :facepalm:

 

[dingbat]

Re: Help with electric winch

Dingbat - I was torn between the PW 712 and the LD. I actually considered the PW 912 as well. As UncleWillie explained in post 4 - I was looking for a low gear ratio as the LD is high at 570:1. But as big as the winch is and overkill for what I need - I don't see the gear ratio being a big issue.

A higher gear ratio, assuming your comparing gears boxes with the same power input, a big if when comparing winches, gives you more pulling power at the expense of speed. A lower gear ratio gives you more speed at the expense of pulling power. The trick is to size the winch correctly so you do not end up with unusable power at the expense of speed.

Looking at the specs of the two units, you missed an important bit of information. The Dutton is a double line unit and the PW is a single line unit so your comparing apples to oranges. A double line on the PW would have produced roughly the same pulling power as the SA1200, at twice the speed.

BTW: Looking at the parts list, the Dutton SA1200 and SA9000 are the exact same winch. They took the guts if the 9000 and put a double line pulley on it and called it the 12000.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Help with electric winch

the power winch 912 pulls 8' per minute. Although you don't need to sink your trailer, you still have a little head start, so 21' boat will be about a 16' pull, or two minutes.

from the website on the 912:
Max. Boat Weight 11500
Line Speed 8 FPM
Vertical Lift Capacity 4000 lbs
Double Line Capacity 7500 lbs
Gear Ratio 450:1


and that's one of the reasons to have one: to keep the axle dry.

So if your D-L is as slow as you think it is (2' per minute) then there's the reason not to over-buy. PLus there's 50' of cable on it--good for those real low tide pulls across the mud flat to the ramp (which I've done before)

 

[coastalrichard]

Re: Help with electric winch

RickyRick, I notice that the conversation has not discussed how to setup the power connections for your new winch. I didn't want to have to make long-run connections to the vehicle battery and came up with this:



It's a plastic, lockable toolbox mounted to the trailer behind the winch post. It contains the battery, back-up hand winch, and a few tools. It's really convenient to open the box and plug in the power cord as it's all right there at the winch. BTW It's a PW912 for the boat in my sig. You'll never dread loading again. Good Luck