Running lights as signals?

[Flynny]

Can I make the amber running lights on the front of my fenders and on the tongue into turn signals? I assume that would be legal at least. So the turning side would see the taillights on the trailer and vehicle blink along with the tongue and front fender light.

Why you ask? Because I like little projects and because it would look cool. I would do it by adding a diode to the running light wire to prevent turn signal voltage from flashing every running light, and by adding a diode to the turn signal/brake wire to prevent running light voltage from flowing back into that system. Both diodes would "point" towards the light. Cost of diodes and connectors would be like $10.

 

[JB]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Sounds like a neat idea, Flynny. I would be inclined to convert to twin filament bulbs like the "tail" lights use, then wire them in parallel with the tail lights on that side.

You can use the current, single filament, bulb either as a running light (parallel with tail light) or as a blinker (parallel with turn signal light), but not both. As I understand your proposal (a diagram sure would help) you don't turn off running light power when you add turn signal and brake light power. The lamp would just stay on.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Ain't going to work as you describe. There is only one filament in a marker light. If you tap into the brake/turn signal and you install the diode so it points TO the light, the light flashes along with the left turn signal because the diode passes current. It also lights when you apply the brakes since the same wire is used for both. In addition, you need that light to be steady ON along with the tail/running lights. If you point the diode AWAY from the light it will never light because it blocks current. The same applies to the stop/turn signal lamp. Diodes pass current in one direction and block in the other. You need a dual filament lamp like the tail lights to do what you want to do. Draw a diagram and post it just in case I've missed something with your description.

 

[Flynny]

Re: Running lights as signals?

It also lights when you apply the brakes since the same wire is used for both.

Oh crap you're right! :facepalm: Er, any way around that? I have a 7 pin connector on my 08' Ford Explorer, isn't one of those pins a straight brake signal? Or is that only with a brake controller?

The only thing I can think of other than that 7th wire is some circuit that allows intermittent current (signals) through, but doesn't allow constant current (brake) through. But that's not worth this. If I was trying to do the opposite, brake signal with no turning signal, that would be easy with the right resistor and maybe a cap.

Edit: I just went out and tested it. I guess because I don't have a brake controller, that brake controller wire is not active. So unless you guys can come up with something, I'm stumped.

 

[leakywire]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Oh crap you're right! :facepalm: Er, any way around that? I have a 7 pin connector on my 08' Ford Explorer, isn't one of those pins a straight brake signal? Or is that only with a brake controller?

The only thing I can think of other than that 7th wire is some circuit that allows intermittent current (signals) through, but doesn't allow constant current (brake) through. But that's not worth this. If I was trying to do the opposite, brake signal with no turning signal, that would be easy with the right resistor and maybe a cap.

Edit: I just went out and tested it. I guess because I don't have a brake controller, that brake controller wire is not active. So unless you guys can come up with something, I'm stumped.

EDIT
Is this even legal to have a blinking light as a marker?

 

[Jlawsen]

Re: Running lights as signals?

CALIFORNIA VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 24950-24953





24950. Whenever any motor vehicle is towing a trailer coach or a
camp trailer the combination of vehicles shall be equipped with a
lamp-type turn signal system.



24951. (a) Any vehicle may be equipped with a lamp-type turn signal
system capable of clearly indicating any intention to turn either to
the right or to the left.
(b) The following vehicles shall be equipped with a lamp-type turn
signal system meeting the requirements of this chapter.
(1) Motortrucks, truck tractors, buses and passenger vehicles,
other than motorcycles, manufactured and first registered on or after
January 1, 1958.
(2) Trailers and semitrailers manufactured and first registered
between December 31, 1957, and January 1, 1969, having a gross weight
of 6,000 pounds or more.
(3) Trailers and semitrailers 80 or more inches in width
manufactured on or after January 1, 1969.
(4) Motorcycles manufactured and first registered on or after
January 1, 1973, except motor-driven cycles whose speed attainable in
one mile is 30 miles per hour or less.
The requirements of this subdivision shall not apply to special
mobile equipment, or auxiliary dollies.
(c) Turn signal lamps on vehicles manufactured on or after January
1, 1969, shall be mounted not lower than 15 inches.



24952. A lamp-type turn signal shall be plainly visible and
understandable in normal sunlight and at nighttime from a distance of
at least 300 feet to the front and rear of the vehicle, except that
turn signal lamps on vehicles of a size required to be equipped with
clearance lamps shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet during
such times.



24953. (a) Any turn signal system used to give a signal of
intention to turn right or left shall project a flashing white or
amber light visible to the front and a flashing red or amber light
visible to the rear.
(b) Side-mounted turn signal lamps projecting a flashing amber
light to either side may be used to supplement the front and rear
turn signals. Side-mounted turn signal lamps mounted to the rear of
the center of the vehicle may project a flashing red light no part of
which shall be visible from the front.
(c) In addition to any required turn signal lamps, any vehicle may
be equipped with supplemental rear turn signal lamps mounted to the
rear of the rearmost portion of the driver's seat in its rearmost
position.
(d) In addition to any required or authorized turn signal lamps,
any vehicle may be equipped with supplemental rear turn signal lamps
that are mounted on, or are an integral portion of, the outside
rearview mirrors, so long as the lamps flash simultaneously with the
rear turn signal lamps, the light emitted from the lamps is projected
only to the rear of the vehicle and is not visible to the driver
under normal operating conditions, except for a visual indicator
designed to allow monitoring of lamp operation, and the lamps do not
project a glaring light.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Running lights as signals?

The brake connection on a seven pin connector is indeed for electric brakes and would be active only if you have a brake controller in the vehicle. Even if you had one, the voltage fed to that line varies by how hard you happen to be stopping so brightness would vary. The only way you can make that side marker blink is to run a totally separate line from the signal flasher in your vehicle. You need to understand that the brake & turn signal use the same filament in the lamp. If the brake is not on, the flasher simply flashes the appropriate lamp. If you step on the brake while making a turn, the opposite light will light the brake/turn filament in a steady state but the lamp on the other side will continue to flash because the two sides are separate circuits. If your vehicle has separate turn and brake BULBS then you could tap into the signals and run separate feeds from there to the marker lights. In that case however, you would need a converter for your tow vehicle to operate the standard turn/brake lights on the trailer.

 

[Don S]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Just like navigation lights on a boat, You must have the required lights working as required by law. But you can add extra lights to it if you want.

 

[MH Hawker]

Re: Running lights as signals?

And you should be able to tap into the brake/turn signal wire at the back and run it up to a additional amber light if you want to. And run one on each side. Leaving the side markers alone. The bulb life may be short though due to it being brighter when the brake is pressed

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Running lights as signals?

And you should be able to tap into the brake/turn signal wire at the back and run it up to a additional amber light if you want to. And run one on each side. Leaving the side markers alone. The bulb life may be short though due to it being brighter when the brake is pressed

Ahh -- the marker is a single filament bulb and will not be any brighter when you step on the brake that if the turn signals was flashing it. Brightness is in the design of the filament. Besides -- the OP wants a turn signal only -- not a turn + brake.

 

[Flynny]

Re: Running lights as signals?

The advantage of the diodes I talked about in my OP is that I do not need a dual filament bulb. First of all, everything on the trailer is LED so unless they make dual separate LEDs in a single package, that wouldn't work. Anyways, for those who don't know, diodes only let electricity flow one way. So by putting a diode in line with the turn/brake wire, it only allows that signal into the lamp, without letting current from the running light wire into it. And by putting a diode in line with the running light, it prevents the turn signal/brake signal from back-flowing into the other running lights. So it would not flash the other side. Picture: (I already bought the goodies, but it looks like I'll be returning them because..)

The problem that still remains here is how to make the running lights flash with the signals, without having them come on with the brakes. The only way I see is what silver-tip said, run dedicated wires from the turn signals in the vehicle. I would do that if I was planning on keeping this trailer for a long time. But because that's custom and not great for resale, and because I don't want to mess with the vehicles wiring and void some warranty, I might have to let this idea go.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Running lights as signals?

The advantage of the diodes I talked about in my OP is that I do not need a dual filament bulb. First of all, everything on the trailer is LED so unless they make dual separate LEDs in a single package, that wouldn't work. Anyways, for those who don't know, diodes only let electricity flow one way. So by putting a diode in line with the turn/brake wire, it only allows that signal into the lamp, without letting current from the running light wire into it. And by putting a diode in line with the running light, it prevents the turn signal/brake signal from back-flowing into the other running lights. So it would not flash the other side. Picture: (I already bought the goodies, but it looks like I'll be returning them because..)

The problem that still remains here is how to make the running lights flash with the signals, without having them come on with the brakes. The only way I see is what silver-tip said, run dedicated wires from the turn signals in the vehicle. I would do that if I was planning on keeping this trailer for a long time. But because that's custom and not great for resale, and because I don't want to mess with the vehicles wiring and void some warranty, I might have to let this idea go.

NO! I did not say run it from the turn signals -- I said run it from the turn signal flasher. Remember, unless you have totally separate turn & brake lights on the two vehicle, the flasher and the brake lights work together. When you step on the brake without turning both stop/turn lights light brightly (bright filament). If you happen to be turning while braking, the flasher INTERRUPTS the constant feed the brake pedal was sending to the stop/turn filament. So to eliminate the brake part of the system you would need to get the feed for the marker signal from the turn signal flasher. If your tow vehicle has amber turn signals at the rear, you have a split system and THEN you can connect to the turn signal but you still need to have the constant on for the marker when not turning. But there is a simpler way to do this. Go to an over the road (semi) trailer shop. Have you not seen semis that have a light mounted at the side of the trailer that does flash with the flashers.

You can also stop at any auto parts store and look at the oval or round shaped stop/turn lamps. Some of those designs have a matching amber marker. Buy the red stop/turn unit and an amber lens. Now you have both running and turn in the same lamp. Or just install another amber marker like you have and mount it tight against the other. I will look just like one bigger light from 10 feet away.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Running lights as signals?

The problem that still remains here is how to make the running lights flash with the signals, without having them come on with the brakes...

Look at the Picture closely.
The real problem with the diodes is you have Wired "OR" logic.
The light are ON if the Running Lights OR the Turn/Brake lights are ON.

Once the Running lights are ON there is nothing to turn them off to make them Flash.
The will just be ON 100% of the time and the Turn/Brake signal will have no effect.

XOR logic would flash them opposite the Turn signals.
But the Running lights would go OFF when the brake lights came ON.

Piano lessons might be a better use of your time.

 

[Flynny]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Look at the Picture closely.
The real problem with the diodes is you have Wired "OR" logic.
The light are ON if the Running Lights OR the Turn/Brake lights are ON.

Once the Running lights are ON there is nothing to turn them off to make them Flash.
The will just be ON 100% of the time and the Turn/Brake signal will have no effect.

XOR logic would flash them opposite the Turn signals.
But the Running lights would go OFF when the brake lights came ON.

Piano lessons might be a better use of your time.

Except the running light voltage is lower than the turn/brake voltage. So yes, the light would always be on, but it would be dim with the running lights, and brighter with the turn/brake lights. Just like the LED taillights I have now.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Except the running light voltage is lower than the turn/brake voltage.

Its the exact same voltage. Stick with the piano lessons.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: Running lights as signals?

As already stated, the voltages for the running / side marker / brake lights are all the same.... Straight battery voltage. If someone told you different, they didn't know what they were talking about. Period.

On an incandescent bulb, it can be done by running the ground of the running lights through the B+ of the turn signal circuit. When the turns are not operating, the ground for the side marker (a very small bulb) will flow easily thru the turn signal filament (a large filament), not lighting the turn signal, but allowing the side marker to glow brightly. When the turns are operating, the B+ applied to the turn will stop the flow of current thru the side marker light ground, extinguishing the light. The turns and side markers will alternate on and off opposite each other. GM did this for many years on the front marker lights and front turn signals and worked very well, because the front turns didn't see the brake light signal. Only caviat is when brakes are applied, you'll lose your side marker lights because the brake and turn is same filament on the tail light. This only works if turn and brake light bulbs are seperate.

Doing on an LED system is an entirely different animal and would need to be done thru relays / diode arrays to make it happen the way you want. Just add another side marker wired to the turn signal to make it blink, but it will light with the brakes also..

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Running lights as signals?

As already stated, the voltages for the running / side marker / brake lights are all the same.... Straight battery voltage. If someone told you different, they didn't know what they were talking about. Period.

On an incandescent bulb, it can be done by running the ground of the running lights through the B+ of the turn signal circuit. When the turns are not operating, the ground for the side marker (a very small bulb) will flow easily thru the turn signal filament (a large filament), not lighting the turn signal, but allowing the side marker to glow brightly. When the turns are operating, the B+ applied to the turn will stop the flow of current thru the side marker light ground, extinguishing the light. The turns and side markers will alternate on and off opposite each other. GM did this for many years on the front marker lights and front turn signals and worked very well, because the front turns didn't see the brake light signal. Only caviat is when brakes are applied, you'll lose your side marker lights because the brake and turn is same filament on the tail light. This only works if turn and brake light bulbs are seperate.

Doing on an LED system is an entirely different animal and would need to be done thru relays / diode arrays to make it happen the way you want. Just add another side marker wired to the turn signal to make it blink, but it will light with the brakes also..

Not if the marker is wired to the flasher so it bypasses the brake switch.

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Not if the marker is wired to the flasher so it bypasses the brake switch.

But now the question is if one wants to provide 2 more points on the vehicle / trailer plug just to satisfy 2 little blinking running lights.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Running lights as signals?

My opinion on this is I like the KISS principal. I don't want to add more complexity to my trailer light system if possible.

 

[Flynny]

Re: Running lights as signals?

Its the exact same voltage. Stick with the piano lessons.

This is pointless at this point...but then explain why the lights go from dim to bright and back and not off to bright and back when the turn signals are on while the running lights are on. Yea, the turn and brake lights are the same voltage cause they're the same brightness at the bulb, but the running lights are much more dim in the tail lights. Less current then I guess. But less voltage would accomplish the same effect. I'll have to check with the multimeter.

Also, quit it with the piano lesson thing. I don't know what kind of comment that is, but no place for it here.