Comments about boat manufacturers in the 60-70-80 time frame

bonz_d

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As a Design Engineer, you're in trouble when the prime criteria of a design is to met a "price point". At that point, "quality" design goes out the window. Everything is a compromise.QUOTE]

On this point all one needs do is look back 10 years ago a computers. "Price Points" were all over the board. There were many very good entry level models made at a very low price point. Differance being the entery level models didn't have the fastest chips, low memory and small storage along with limited software. They still worked very well and filled a nitch.

Same could be said for Bass Tracker boats back then. Decent boats but mainly sold with the smallest possible engines to keep costs down. They sold bunches of them.

Mark, I don't think it's just a matter of long term storage but more a fact of long term exposure. I'll use this example. In this area there are many a pontoon that are left tied to a pier uncovered all summer long. Exposed to the elements. Sure a rain now and then doesn't have a lot of effect until that time comes when it rains hard for a week and there is no time to dry out and everything becomes saturated.
Another example would be the Alumacraft that I'm working with right now. Some time before I bought it the carpet was removed and the plywood replaced. They didn't do a very good job of it. There was a piece of ply and carpet still left under the rod locker and flotation box on one side and under the livewell on the other. When I pulled up a piece of the newer ply it was dry. Then I seen the remains, was able to pull that out and it was all soaked. It hadn't seen water for about a week at that point.

Have other thoughts on this as well but have to run off to the eye doctors. I'll be back!
 

dozerII

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Excellent thread Mark. I have only ever restored one glass boat (as it was enough for me) I work only on Starcraft Aluminum, which fit right into the category of cost versus quality. The hulls are very well built but, the interiors utilized materials that would just get the job done. But even with these, I have personal experience with 10 of them, I have seen mid to late 80's models with the interior completely rotted out and I have seen an early 70's in absolutely great condition inside and out. It all comes down to how it is looked after, even with the minimum in quality products in the interior if the Owner just took care of the boat as suggested in the owners manual it's amazing how well they last. Just my 2cents
 

bonz_d

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Show Room New, rebuilt old?

New boats today are either glass or metal. In the glass boat industry there are onlt a handfull of manufaturers that make glass cloth or material, some goes to the resins used to bind that. Those materials are for the most part controlled by those manufacturers as to price structure and that effects all builders. So there is little way to save or cut corners there w/o reducing the amount of material used to build just a hull. So then that brings in design to save money. The next step would be fitting/rigging Which to me is were most of the cost cutting comes in.

As for metal boats it's a bit different as the cost of raw material is mostly controlled by the stock market.....

So yes it is resonable to know who the builders are, what their reputation and to what market are they building to.

We here on this forum as used boat rebuilders we get to choose the extent of what we are going to do and also the quality of the materials we will use. We have to decide on a budget, a time frame for completion and the biggest question is what are we trying to accomplish and to what extent.

My viewpoint is one doesn't buy a $1500.00 project only to throw $3000.00 into it and when it is done one could find the same boat in the same finished condition for $2500.00
 

Texasmark

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Thanks Dozer. Bonz, to me sitting out all summer uncovered is long term storage of a sort. As noted, it's not good for the upholstery, the gell coat or anything else.

Mark
 

SDSeville

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My viewpoint is one doesn't buy a $1500.00 project only to throw $3000.00 into it and when it is done one could find the same boat in the same finished condition for $2500.00

Haha. That is exactly what I did.
 

dingbat

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Show Room New, rebuilt old?

New boats today are either glass or metal. In the glass boat industry there are onlt a handfull of manufaturers that make glass cloth or material, some goes to the resins used to bind that. Those materials are for the most part controlled by those manufacturers as to price structure and that effects all builders. So there is little way to save or cut corners there w/o reducing the amount of material used to build just a hull. So then that brings in design to save money. The next step would be fitting/rigging Which to me is were most of the cost cutting comes in.

Cost cutting comes in every part of the build and your largest cost by far manpower followed by design criteria.

What's cheaper...a craftsman working hand laid fiberglass or a kid fresh out of school with a chopper gun? What's cheaper.... a hatch with a well fitted cover, a gasket and a drain ring with a means to divert any seepage overboard, or a piece of starboard sitting over a cutout with no secondary protection that drains directly into the bilge?

My boat sits in a slip uncovered for several month a year. Any water whatsoever in the bilge is cause for alarm. Boat X's bilge is full of water from an afternoons water skiing. It's normal, don't worry about it...... Is the bilge filling up by design, the result of a cost cutting measure or a fitting / rigging problem? How hard would it be to have a self bailing deck on the boat? One would think this would be an important feature given the widely held opinion that wet bilges cause rot.

Which bring up another question. If you completely encapsulated a piece of treated lumber in glass and gelcoat and left it out in the weather, how long would it take for the wood to rot?

Great read.....http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf
 

Texasmark

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Which bring up another question. If you completely encapsulated a piece of treated lumber in glass and gelcoat and left it out in the weather, how long would it take for the wood to rot?

Great read.....http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf

Butting in again, I think the problem arises in voids in the resin and or cracks in the finished product due to stresses caused by pounding over waves. The problem to me is long term soaking rather than wet and dry cycles. I proved this in my house and barn. The beams under the house rotted due to moisture accumulation from the soil and having no air circulation to dry them out. The wooden purlins on the barn are just as old and get wet but dry in a cyclic manner.

My 2c,
Mark
 

pckeen

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My viewpoint is one doesn't buy a $1500.00 project only to throw $3000.00 into it and when it is done one could find the same boat in the same finished condition for $2500.00

Sigh. That's what I'm DOING!
 

jbcurt00

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My viewpoint is one doesn't buy a $1500.00 project only to throw $3000.00 into it and when it is done one could find the same boat in the same finished condition for $2500.00
I couldn't disagree more.

And why would you pay $1500 for a project boat?

Someone ask WOG or Sphelps if they'd take $2500 for either of their now 'finished' project boats. WOG's wasn't even a full gut, and for the short term, I firmly believe his answer would be NO....
 

Texasmark

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I couldn't disagree more.

And why would you pay $1500 for a project boat?

Someone ask WOG or Sphelps if they'd take $2500 for either of their now 'finished' project boats. WOG's wasn't even a full gut, and for the short term, I firmly believe his answer would be NO....

I didn't. I paid $1600 for a half sunk Starcraft I/O that I just "had to have". Had to go through everything on it. Course I didn't realize the depth of the repairs required or I wouldn't have paid anywhere near that kind of money. But the project was an experience and although challenging, was a real enjoyment, especially when I had it out on the water later and as I'd take it through it's paces say to myself......."I did this". Don't remember the total cost.

Mark
 

jbcurt00

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I didn't. I paid $1600 for a half sunk Starcraft I/O that I just "had to have". Had to go through everything on it. Course I didn't realize the depth of the repairs required or I wouldn't have paid anywhere near that kind of money. But the project was an experience and although challenging, was a real enjoyment, especially when I had it out on the water later and as I'd take it through it's paces say to myself......."I did this". Don't remember the total cost.

Mark
Mark, no matter what you paid in total, do you think you could have 1/2 the confidence in ANY boat you bought at that price? I doubt it, not knowing what we all know now. And that was my point. ;)

And for that confidence and 'I did this' feeling, I think it's worth more then whatever the actual 'costs' were. If it isn't, we should find a different outlet for wasting our money.....

For me, here at iboats, 'helping' others, I know that IF the advise given is followed to the best of the re-builder's ability, AND they & subsequent owners take care of the boat w/ regular maintenance, numerous future owners can rest assured that they are in a safe craft NOT a hacked up, half arsed patch job that COULD be unsafe.

Until it really isn't safe, many of the problems that plague poorly maintained boats, don't manifest themselves and can be very difficult to find w/out destructive testing. Even seasoned boat rehab veterans get taken advantage of, Friscoboater's 2nd rehab project is a PERFECT example of that..
 

dingbat

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Butting in again, I think the problem arises in voids in the resin and or cracks in the finished product due to stresses caused by pounding over waves.

My 2c,
Mark
I whole heartedly agree...but some builders do a heck of a lot better job at their glass work and structural design that prevents/minimize the stresses that propagate the failures.

My first boat was a 1986 Citation cuddy cabinet. As my first boat, I thought the world of it. About 7 years out, the floor went soft and little nuisance problems started surfacing. I tore up the floor only to find a "painted on" layer of glass on the underside of the plywood. Someone was obviously in a hurry and just slopped it on there. Same with the under structure. Stress cracks starting to show in the connections. Inadequate support and a outer hull so thin you could push the sides in by hand. It worked, but nothing "quality" about it.

My existing boats has been "hardened" beyond belief in comparison. This fact is obviously reflected in the price tag

There are three reasons to restore......sentimental value, rarity and demand. Just make sure that it's not a "rarity" for dubious reasons....lol
 

bonz_d

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I couldn't disagree more.

And why would you pay $1500 for a project boat?

Someone ask WOG or Sphelps if they'd take $2500 for either of their now 'finished' project boats. WOG's wasn't even a full gut, and for the short term, I firmly believe his answer would be NO....


The 1st question is a good one. I wouldn't necessarily unless it was something special/rare/old. In which case it would be more of a restore.

Next is if some one could find a finished boat such as those for $2500.00 they'd be a fool to not buy it. Even at the total $4500.00 total cost I stated to finish. But what I was trying to get across was buying something as a project while knowing that it will cost $XXX to get it useable or to the condition wanted when at the same time one knows that a clean usable model of the same boat can be purchased for much less than what they would be looking at to do the project.

So let's look at the one I'll be working on over the winter. It is a 1988 Alumacraft Classic 16. Not rare, not special but is old. It is also a model that I was looking for. Years available 1986 - 1994 for basically the same hull/layout. Real life value of a nice clean useable model equipt the way I'd like. $3000.00 - $4200.00

I paid $1100.00 for the one I have which was still about $300.00 more than I would have liked but it came with things that I will now not have to buy.. Like newer trolling motor, 2 newer batteries, onboard charger, anchors and a trailer that was only 6 years old.
When I bought this there was a blown 1988 Evinrude 70hp engine on it and the plywood decking was poorly redone. I have added $600.00 for a replacement engine, a very nice Johnson 60hp 2 cylinder which is also what I wanted. Lastly I figure it will cost me about $400.00 to redo the decking and another $100.00 to repaint it and another $150.00 for new OEM graphics. So I'll have about $2500.00 into it when finished. Still just a bit under what I could have spent for one I wouldn't have had to do anything to other than I still haven't seen one with the 60hp on it. They have all been 40-50hp 2 cylinder or 60-75hp 3 and 4 cylinder engines.
In this case if it was going to cost me more than the $4000.00 total cost to do this I wouldn't be doing it. Then if some one came along and offered me the $3500.00 I figure I'll have into it I'd take it if I had another project boat in mind. Like another Lund.
 

bonz_d

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What's cheaper...a craftsman working hand laid fiberglass or a kid fresh out of school with a chopper gun? What's cheaper.... a hatch with a well fitted cover, a gasket and a drain ring with a means to divert any seepage overboard, or a piece of starboard sitting over a cutout with no secondary protection that drains directly into the bilge?

Which bring up another question. If you completely encapsulated a piece of treated lumber in glass and gelcoat and left it out in the weather, how long would it take for the wood to rot?

Great read.....http://www.ericgreeneassociates.com/images/Boat_Longevity.pdf
In that case I would put that into 2 seperate classes of boats. With the hand laid glass much more costly and more rare. Which also isn't the way most boats are built today for the general public.

Second question is one of the areas that I followed earlier this year when I was researching that subject. The answer I found was "still depends on many veriables. but will still not last forever."

As the article you linked also states. The composite lasts though the wood does not. Which goes along with everything I'd read. It is a very interesting article though and a good read!
 

bonz_d

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Butting in again, I think the problem arises in voids in the resin and or cracks in the finished product due to stresses caused by pounding over waves. The problem to me is long term soaking rather than wet and dry cycles. I proved this in my house and barn. The beams under the house rotted due to moisture accumulation from the soil and having no air circulation to dry them out. The wooden purlins on the barn are just as old and get wet but dry in a cyclic manner.

My 2c,
Mark

This has become my arguement with treating plywood used in decking. While encapsulating the plywood is a very sound idea and practice it is not fool proof or indestructable. With the drawback being that once the capsule is compromised the water gets in easily but has a very hard time escaping. Other methods may absorb water but it also has a way to give it up and dry out.

I can understand glassing it all in with a glass boat as the ply also gets glassed into the sides of the hull, enclosing everything even more so. While tin boats the edges do not get glassed to the sides and even though it is just a small gap it still provides an escape for moisture and a way for air to circulate. Also with plywood from everything I've seen the rot always starts at the edges where the plywood is the weakest at resisting water.
 

JASinIL2006

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Mark, no matter what you paid in total, do you think you could have 1/2 the confidence in ANY boat you bought at that price? I doubt it, not knowing what we all know now. And that was my point. ;)

And for that confidence and 'I did this' feeling, I think it's worth more then whatever the actual 'costs' were. If it isn't, we should find a different outlet for wasting our money.....

For me, here at iboats, 'helping' others, I know that IF the advise given is followed to the best of the re-builder's ability, AND they & subsequent owners take care of the boat w/ regular maintenance, numerous future owners can rest assured that they are in a safe craft NOT a hacked up, half arsed patch job that COULD be unsafe.

Until it really isn't safe, many of the problems that plague poorly maintained boats, don't manifest themselves and can be very difficult to find w/out destructive testing. Even seasoned boat rehab veterans get taken advantage of, Friscoboater's 2nd rehab project is a PERFECT example of that..

Well said!
 

redneck joe

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My viewpoint is one doesn't buy a $1500.00 project only to throw $3000.00 into it and when it is done one could find the same boat in the same finished condition for $2500.00




add a zero to the finished end thats about where I'll end up.
 
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