winterizing early

[roffey]

I am in Ontario Canada and have not winterized my boat and do not plan on it until the end of the month and maybe middle of next month. There seems to be a lot of people winterizing now. It seems to me that there is still a little of the season left? When I park my boat in the driveway, I put the outdrive down all the way to drain the water, I assume the water in the block would not freeze until we hit prolonged temps below freezing. Feel free to correct me as I don't want to damage my boat.

 

[Maclin]

Drain it well now, and if you go out again drain it well after each time.

 

[ihearth2o]

around here, they call it "getting ready for hunting season". Hunt what? I'm not sure. Turkeys maybe but it doesn't take weeks to get your shotgun ready for that.

 

[Starcraft5834]

take 5 mins and drain your block and manifold.......if you get to use your boat again.. good for you... or you could risk leaving water in there till next month, get a good overnight freeze and seriously damage your engine......U pick

 

[moosehead]

+5, if you are trailering, drain it each time. Too cold now at night to risk it. It only takes 5 minutes to pull both block drain plugs, and both exhaust drain plugs, plus the upper hose connections. I too wait until mid-Oct, and our temps in CO Rockies are similar to yours, it has been below freezing most every night since early Sept. Only those who leave their boats in the water, or in heated garages, are not draining blocks and outdrives.

 

[roffey]

Great advice I will take, Thanks.

 

[UncleWillie]

If it is below 38F, (+3C) it is possible to freeze up.
On a clear dark night, sky facing objects can freeze due to Radiation Cooling.
That is why you will hear frost warnings when the temperature is still above freezing.
Point an IR Thermometer at a clear night sky and it will easily read minus 40 degrees.

Ice does the most damage right at the freezing point it shrinks as it gets colder.
31.9F (-0.1C) is all it takes to crack the block.
Ice can exert well over 10,000 psi (100mpa). Something is going to give.

 

[Bondo]

If it is below 38F, (+3C) it is possible to freeze up.
On a clear dark night, sky facing objects can freeze due to Radiation Cooling.
That is why you will hear frost warnings when the temperature is still above freezing.
Point an IR Thermometer at a clear night sky and it will easily read minus 40 degrees.

Ice does the most damage right at the freezing point it shrinks as it gets colder.
31.9F (-0.1C) is all it takes to crack the block.
Ice can exert well over 10,000 psi (100mpa). Something is going to give.

Ayuh,.....I'm callin' Bullship,..... Completely Untrue,....

A block will NOT freeze at 38°,......

A block will NOT freeze, 'n Crack, at 31.9°, unless it stays at 31.9° for weeks on end, with No warm ups at all,.....

 

[Chris1956]

To add to Bondo's information, in anticipation of the next rant.....A Wind Chill below freezing doesn't freeze blocks or pipes, if the temp is above freezing.

 

[H20Rat]

38F won't freeze a block that is installed in a boat, period... Not gonna happen, ever. Doesn't matter how clear it is. Even dipping to 30F overnight won't freeze a block in a boat. Engine compartments have lots of nice sound insulation, as well as being encased in fiberglass. (great insulator) Much below 30 though, and it can get expensive.

As good as infrared thermometers are, they are often misused. They pretent to act like thermometers, but they are not. They do not measure temperature, they measure infrared emissions and then translate that to temperature. HUGE difference. Also, they need to be calibrated for the surface it is pointed at. For example, fiberglass has a reflectivity value of .77, while steel can be from .24 to .59. Rusted iron can be up to .96. So you could have 3 surfaces in a boat that all are identical temperatures but will read VASTLY temperatures on an IR thermometer. Most consumer grade point and shoot thermometers have no way to enter or calibrate reflectivity values unfortunately.

http://www.thermoworks.com/emissivity_table.html

 

[BRICH1260]

If in doubt run an extension cord to a light bulb into the engine compartment. Should buy you an extra week or so before winterizing.

 

[roffey]

For the next week we will have temps in the 70s during the day and 50s at night. Friday is when I will put her away for the winter and Thursday will be my last cruse for 2014.

 

[UncleWillie]

Ayuh,.....I'm callin' Bullship,..... Completely Untrue,....
A block will NOT freeze at 38,......
A block will NOT freeze, 'n Crack, at 31.9, unless it stays at 31.9 for weeks on end, with No warm ups at all,.....

Bondo, you are reading more into this than what was stated.

I didn't state that a block will freeze at 38F. It will not.
I stated that if the (Ambient Air) Temperature was below 38F it is possible for (Objects) to Freeze.
I could have been more specific.
36 to 34 is more realistic. But if the forecast is calling for 38, the risk of freezing begins to become possible.
I am not saying that at 38 the lake is going to freeze over, Just that frost on the pumpkins (and your boat) is a possibility.

We have all noticed frost with the temperature above 32 by some margin.
That frost is Ice and it is below 32. You will only see frost on clear nights due to the cooling effect of the sky.
Freezing water with air temperature above 32 is common.
Any evening you notice Dew on the grass, the same effect is in play.
The grass has cooled far enough below the air to reach the dew-point and the water in the air begins to precipitate out.
The grass is significantly colder than the air.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the BLOCK, Not the Ambient Air, is at 31.9F it IS frozen! However long it takes to reach 31.9 is immaterial. It is frozen at 31.9.

There is a misconception that right at the freeze point, the ice is still soft and will not do any damage and that it will need to get into the lower 20's before it becomes hard enough to freeze the block.
Water expands volume by ~8.4% just as it freezes and contracts back to ~8.2% at 20F.
You get some small relief but the damage is already done.

Just to be complete, while the Volume expands by ~8.4% the linear dimension change is only 2.9%.
Your 1 inch water jacket gets pushed out .029 inches, not .084.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The weather for the next few day here is calling for 70 degree days and 40 degree clear nights.
I will record the temperature of the block in my covered boat, and the outside air temperature for the next few days and present the graphs here.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Radiative cooling would not be much an issue for an engine block in an enclosed space (like an engine bay), right? Even your pumpkins won't show frost if you block them from the night sky... even tenting with some newspaper would probably inhibit the heat loss.

 

[Bondo]

Bondo, you are reading more into this than what was stated.

I didn't state that a block will freeze at 38F. It will not.
I stated that if the (Ambient Air) Temperature was below 38F it is possible for (Objects) to Freeze.
I could have been more specific.
36 to 34 is more realistic. But if the forecast is calling for 38, the risk of freezing begins to become possible.
I am not saying that at 38 the lake is going to freeze over, Just that frost on the pumpkins (and your boat) is a possibility.

We have all noticed frost with the temperature above 32 by some margin.
That frost is Ice and it is below 32. You will only see frost on clear nights due to the cooling effect of the sky.
Freezing water with air temperature above 32 is common.
Any evening you notice Dew on the grass, the same effect is in play.
The grass has cooled far enough below the air to reach the dew-point and the water in the air begins to precipitate out.
The grass is significantly colder than the air.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the BLOCK, Not the Ambient Air, is at 31.9F it IS frozen! However long it takes to reach 31.9 is immaterial. It is frozen at 31.9.

There is a misconception that right at the freeze point, the ice is still soft and will not do any damage and that it will need to get into the lower 20's before it becomes hard enough to freeze the block.
Water expands volume by ~8.4% just as it freezes and contracts back to ~8.2% at 20F.
You get some small relief but the damage is already done.

Just to be complete, while the Volume expands by ~8.4% the linear dimension change is only 2.9%.
Your 1 inch water jacket gets pushed out .029 inches, not .084.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The weather for the next few day here is calling for 70 degree days and 40 degree clear nights.
I will record the temperature of the block in my covered boat, and the outside air temperature for the next few days and present the graphs here.

Ayuh, but the ambient temps have to be low enough, Long enough(time), to get the core temp of the block, 'n the water in it to 31.9°,....
This is real life, not lab conditions,.... Time is the essence,...

One of my Mentors always said it took 6 hours at 26° to freeze crack a motor block full of water,.....
I've never tested his statements, I drain everything Dry if I here 30° expected over night,....

 

[smokeonthewater]

One thing that can be stated without ABSOLUTE certainty....... NO engine has ever had ice damage done to it without water in it thus NEVER has a block been busted because someone spent a couple minutes draining the water just in case it got colder than expected......

This has got to be the SILLIEST repeat argument we have here...... I've seen plenty of nights that ended up being way colder than expected....... If there is ever ANY doubt just drain the water....

 

[UncleWillie]

Ayuh, but the ambient temps have to be low enough, Long enough(time), to get the core temp of the block, 'n the water in it to 31.9,....This is real life, not lab conditions,.... Time is the essence,...
One of my Mentors always said it took 6 hours at 26 to freeze crack a motor block full of water,.....
I've never tested his statements, I drain everything Dry if I here 30 expected over night,....

I agree, somehow you must get the block to freeze. But that was not the point of the original comment.

Ice does the most damage right at the freezing point, it shrinks as it gets colder.
31.9F (-0.1C) is all it takes to crack the block.
Ice can exert well over 10,000 psi (100mpa). Something is going to give.

The point was that you do not need to get the temperature well below 32 to do damage.
31.9 is all it will take as the maximum stresses occur right at the freeze point.
The ambient Temperature can be 31.5 degrees for a month or 26 for 6 hours.
When the actual metal of the Block reaches 31.9, freeze damage is possible.

 

[bruceb58]

Water freezes at 32. Where are you guys coming up with 31.9?

 

[UncleWillie]

Water freezes at 32. Where are you guys coming up with 31.9?

We are not saying that water freezes at 31.9. We are saying water is Frozen at 31.9.
31.9 is only for the point of discussion to assure the water has frozen and we have a solid water, Ice.

At 32 the water can be a liquid or a solid. Water freezes at 32, Ice also melts at exactly the same 32.
No temperature change takes place during the freezing/melting events.
In a well insulated glass of water and ice cubes, the water and the ice cubes are at exactly the same temperature.
The water need Not be the slightest bit warmer than the cubes to be in the liquid state.
The difference between liquid water and solid ice at 32F is the Latent heat of Fusion. Not the temperature.
Therefor I use 31.9 to signify solid side of the freezing point. It is a simpler form of 31.99999999999999.

For many of our members, this is going to go over their heads. But it will be an education and interesting discussion.

 

[smokeonthewater]

for all those decimals you are gonna need the altitude and what impurities are in the water....

It IS also possible to get water way below 32* without freezing it tho supercooling is unlikely to occur in an engine block....... Oh yeah did I mention just drain the water LOL