rough water capability

[vinnie1234]

Hello all. I am new to boating and have recently acquired a 1978 crestliner crusader bowrider. It iis 17.75 feet long with a deep v hull. Seems to have a decent amount of deadrise and as it is fibreglass it has a nicely flared hull to deflect water. I have had it out in some chop (3foot waves, short intervals maybe 2 sec).

Anyway, as a new mariner I am not entirely sure what constitutes rough or dangerous water conditions with this boat. I felt quote comfortable in the chop, even though there was the occasional "slam" while on plane.

I was wondering if any of you folks have owned a boat like this and can offer me some feedback as to what can be done in rough water. I realize that some of this depends on the skipper (me) and I have been diligent in researching the correct way to handle a boat in adverse conditions.

My plan is to take the boat out in calm waters and gradually step up to boating in heavier weather. This way I can afford to make some small errors and gain some experience.
What I don't want to do is go out in some rough-ish water and then find out that the waves come over the bow and over the transom and swallow my damn boat. So I guess I am looking for some guidelines to use as a noob, and also an idea of what the boat would be capable of with an experienced skipper (me, after a few years).

The thing that gets me is that there are many varying stories about small 16-18 foot boats. Some guys take these things out in big water without incident and other guys say that a 3 foot wave will swallow you whole.

Wave intervals in my area seem to range from 2.0 sec to 5 sec. Wave height seem to average around 3 feet.

So, if any of you can satisfy my curiosity and desire to learn, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Barramundi NQ]

Hi, what motor is on the boat?

 

[vinnie1234]

140hp OMC sterndrive and 4hp kicker

 

[Barramundi NQ]

By all accounts you are going about it the right way. Gain as mich experience in calm water conditions. Get comfortable launching and retrieving your boat. Here in Australia if we go past the calm water zones, we must carry an EPIRB. Vhf radios are good, life jackets suitable for all aboard (children under 12 must wear them always, and all aboard must wear them when crossing a bar. Working bilge pump. Flares, and the required safety equipment called for by your local authorities. And a fire extinguisher will always be appreciated if you see flames.........better to have a fire extinguisher and not need one than need a fire extinguisher and not have one!
Kerry

 

[Frank Acampora]

Suffice to say that if the hull is in good condition the boat can take way more abuse than the skipper or passengers. You also need a reliable engine, big enough to maintain way in all wave conditions.

Rough water requires a modicum of common sense--which isn't so very common. Plan for the worst.. If small craft warnings are up, DON'T go out. Water doesn't always go in the direction you want to go. Learn how to quarter waves and handle your hull in following seas etc. In your case, It might be a good idea to pay an experienced captain to teach you. AND--Don't forget: Definitely take the Coast Guard Auxiliary boating course. It will be way better than the rudimentary state run licensing course you take on line.

As a bow rider and a relatively small one at that, you can expect from time to time to take water over the bow. TWO high capacity bilge pumps would be a very good investment. I have been out on Barnegat Bay in a 21 foot cuddy-cabin and have had green water come over the windshield. Soaked me and my wife--we looked like drowned rats. A little 500 GPH bilge pump simply would not have done the job

 

[Barramundi NQ]

Agree totally with Frank, re having enough power in all wave weather conditions,. A following sea is when the waves are coming from behind the boat, like surfing down the wave face. The worst in that situation is when a broach occurs, where the wave speed catches the boat and can push the boat sideways. The waves can also come over the transom and swamp under heavy seas. Bilge pumps are essential equipment. Bigger is better!
By looking at the setup of the boaters (fishermen) at your local ramp, you'll see what you need to do and the types of boating you want to do.

 

[vinnie1234]

I have picked up some trim tabs but not yet installed them, the boat also has adjustable trim - so in the meantime that will work fine for the conditions I am going out in. As for reliability, the 3.0l gm is a very reliable engine, but I have had the whole outdrive apart, repaired various cracks (including a massive crack in the engine block) and am just going out on short trips this season.

After reading up on how to handle a boat, it seemed to be very common sense to me, This is why I chose to venture out that day into the choppy waters. I found that it was fairly easy to negotiate by adjusting trim and speed to get up on plane. With short intervals this worked pretty good. I adjusted my course so that once on plane I had a little bit of roll, but not enough to take me off course and cutting on an angle reduced the shock of the waves.

I found it a little more difficult to manage on the way back, (with waves following) but was able to adjust speed and course to make the ride reasonably comfortable.
I did make one mistake - and that was a log turn around at about 15-20mph. In mid corner the boat went up the crest of a wave and "fell" off sending me in to a very small and manageable fish tail. I adjusted my technique and it didn't happen again. I sort of had to zig-zag a bit to get back to port, cutting the waves on an angle and running a little faster than the tide. I also found that it was pretty easy for me to look at upcoming waves and adjust throttle frequently to control the attitude of the bow.

From what I can tell, 3 foot waves at short interval would be considered rough water, but the boat (and I) handled it quite well. We didn't get wet either. So this leads me to think that bigger water would be quite manageable.

I have life preservers, fire extinguisher and flares, first aid kit, tool kit and all of the safety equipment on board. My bilge pump is a joke, so that is for sure in the cards. I also plan on making a water tight hard top for the bow. I will be going out alone frequently so I want to be as safe as possible.

We get fairly harsh winters up here and I have always enjoyed the challenges presented with winter driving in severe weather. I have a little more fear of the water than I do of blizzards, but I do think that I will get some enjoyment out of challenging the water (within reason).

Do these crestliner boats have a good reputation as rough water handlers? There are quite a few guys out here with late 70's Wilkers and they quite like em for the rough weather.

 

[gddavid]

I would say that you have already taken your boat to it's reasonable limit. 3' chop at 2 seconds are serious conditions. Most boaters grossly over estimate wave height, they will come in off the water and swear the marine forcast of 1' to 2' seas was way off and that they saw 3 and 4 footers all day. In reality the forecast was pretty spot on and 2' waves at a short interval are a bumpy ride for 40' boats. Now ocean swells are an entirely different animal. Next time you are out on a rough day pay close attention to a navigational light, daybeacon or dolphin (something stuck the the bottom) and observe the actual hight of waves going by. The folks at the national weather service actually know their job pretty well.

 

[southkogs]

Suffice to say that if the hull is in good condition the boat can take way more abuse than the skipper or passengers...

Well said. And that probably goes for "seamanship" too. Experienced boaters can read waves and conditions in ways that inexperienced will have a very hard time doing. You need to become something of a "weatherman."

Also, make sure you denote a "wave" vs. a "swell". A 3' swell (natural rise and fall of a body of water) is rather manageable, even in a 17'. A 3' wave (water moving and eventually gonna' break - think white caps on some of 'em) is a different animal and is lookin' to hurt ya'.

My old 15' tri-hull used to be used on Lake Huron quite a bit. It could get bouncy out there, but if you pay attention it works fine.

 

[vinnie1234]

Next time you are out on a rough day pay close attention to a navigational light, daybeacon or dolphin (something stuck the the bottom) and observe the actual hight of waves going by. The folks at the national weather service actually know their job pretty well.

I am hoping "dolphin" is a marine term for some device? If I ever see a dolphin in Georgian bay I will be reaching for my camera! lol.

The wave height estimate was my own, based on visual observation - and a bit of geometry. There were no white caps, but I am very familiar with the water in colpoys bay and with a tad more wind there would have been some white caps for sure. The waves were steep- just to the point of breaking. My estimate of 3 feet is from crest to trough. Both seemed to be a foot or a foot and a half deep.

To me these conditions did not seem hard to manage, and this is what I mean about mixed messages form online. What should I glean form this information? Should I realize that I handled the boat just fine at it's "reasonable limits" or should I think that it is capable of more? Shoul I assume I have misjudged the wave size and go by the buoy data? As a novice, I am not about to get cocky and say that I am a naturally good skipper. That may or may not be the case, but If I head out there with a cocky attitude I think that is just asking mother nature to give me swimming lessons.

The tricky part about using buoy information is that the nearest buoy is about 40 km out in the bay, and the water goes from about 50 fathoms to 15 fathoms near where I launch. In my logic this should give me shorter wave periods at port than what the buoy registers.

It would be nice to have some guidelines as to what is manageable or not - beyond my limited experience.

 

[gddavid]

No Title

A dolphin is a group of pilings fastened together. You are more likely to see a dolphin in an exposed area than a single piling.

 

[southkogs]

Interestingly, I've been on the Great Lakes and the Gulf of Mexico in storms (only one on the Gulf and all basically gettin' caught with my pants down). I've also run into some pop-up storms here in TN. The one on the Gulf scared me (I wasn't the captain and wasn't familiar with the water - the captain was even a little nerved on that one), the Great Lakes storms (a few) never really scared me.

The one pop-up I got caught in here in Tennessee scared the dickens outta' me. Waves probably never hit 4 feet, but they were actually breaking a little and the wind was ferocious. I was absolutely amazed.

Some of the local "old salts" hanging around the marinas in your area may be a better source of information on when it's wise to be scared.

 

[vinnie1234]

I seem to get similar responses from everyone. I was really hoping to find someone with the same type of boat that had "put it to the test". I would like to know if I have a good boat, or if I should look to something else in the future. I am sure that only experience will give me the final answers, but I look at this as being somewhat like motorcycles. I grew up around bikes and I see all of the rookie bikers making the same mistakes. Thinking that riding a bike is like driving a car. Suspension dynamics and distributioin of traction is not only different but varies with the type of maneuver. I know that this information can be learned prior to riding the bike, and so I am kind of thinking I can gather some of this information from boaters. But a dirt bike has different considerations than a sport bike, so I would think that a small bowrider would handle very differently from a cabin cruiser or a canoe.

I have had a canoe through some rough water and rapids and I consider myself to be a skilled paddler. In many ways the same principles used to handle rough water in a canoe can apply to a larger craft.

Scott: the info about your 15 footer is helpful to me. I expect that it would be similar to my boat except maybe a bit more tendency to roll as a result of lower effective deadrise? How far above the water was the transom in this boat? What is considered a low transom?

 

[southkogs]

The Crestliner (in theory) would do better than my tri-hull in 3' waves. The Crestliner Crusaders that I've seen have both better dead rise and more freeboard. The tri-hull would be more stable sitting still, but the Crestliner hull's freeboard and a more substantial bow rake would be better to handle the bigger waves.

That said, going into the seas is one thing, running with a following sea is completely different. None of my transoms have ever been a match for a 3' wave coming over the back.

 

[dingbat]

All I have to say is your dreaming if you think you safe in a 3' heavy chop in a 18' bow rider. Unless you have a min. 36" of freeboard, your just one breaker away from disaster. The lack of a self bailing hull seals your doom.

 

[airshot]

As a boater for more than 50 years I will say that while your boat may handle the 3' waves it will not be fun. I have a 22' and I set my limit at 3 waves. Conditions
along with the waves are what can make or break a safe boat ride. I have been in 8' waves with an 18' bowrider before, was it fun...HELL NO, did I make it back without issue yes. Need a reliable motor, a lot can be done with the proper application of power in large seas but.....if your power fails then you are at the mercy of the sea and that will not be good. No one can say whether you are safe in 3' waves because it depends on so many other things including your boating skills. Sort of like a beginning driver of a car, of course they can drive the car...that is the easy part but.....when something drastic happens suddenly then only skill and experience will prevail. Same thing with your boat, as a rookie you can drive a boat, but get into a sticky situation and make the wrong move you will join Davey Jones locker.

 

[vinnie1234]

I guess with such a small boat I am best to stick with my current MO and stay close to shore in good weather. It's not that I want to go straight out and thumb my nose at a storm, but I like the idea of exploring in the boat and no doubt if I do that - I will get caught in some weather I shouldn't be in.
The boat has around 24" of freeboard, but there is closer to 3 feet at the bow. If I ever got caught in a heavy following sea, I suppose my first course of action is to see if I can match/exceed the wave speed (without broaching), and failing that I suppose I would have to turn around and face the waves with the bow to avoid getting swamped?

 

[southkogs]

... I suppose my first course of action is to see if I can match/exceed the wave speed (without broaching), and failing that I suppose I would have to turn around and face the waves with the bow to avoid getting swamped?

I would say more than matching speed, it's learning how to "feather" your speed to work with the wave. You learn that different angles have different affects, how to read oncoming waves, time 'em out and even to surf a little.

Coming through break water adds a whole new element to the game. Even a self bailing hull is little comfort with water breaking over the stern.

 

[Barramundi NQ]

If you add a storm cover to the bow area so any big waves (green water) can't swamp your boat in 1 second flat. Because bowriders are designed with calm (ish) water in mind as it's not comfortable up the front of these boats in heavy seas, having a cover will add a further layer of protection. I don't call 3 ft waves easy, and you can pound a boat in those conditions.
My glass boat is a 16ft cuddy. Big bow and big wind screen means a dry ride. For me 3 foot waves are stay at home weather. I have been out 30nm and it's blown up to 25-30knots. But where I fish on Great Barrier Reef usually gives me a tail wind home. This is a following sea, and is comfortable albeit a little slow ride home. When it rarely blows from the north it will be a painful ride home. The most commendable part of your questions are that you asking them and not blindly going out unprepared and putting your life and those in your boat with you at risk.
As I mentioned before experience can only be acquired through you putting in the time on the water. Most of us will have at some time in our boating careers put the ourselves beyond the boats capabilities at some point.
By staying within those capabilities you will enjoy your boat and time on the water will be deeply satisfying, which for me is the point of a boat.
kerry

 

[vinnie1234]

Thanks Kerry. I was aware that many people use boats like mine on the ocean quite safely, however the great lakes can be nastier at times. Waves can get very high depending where you are, in a gale 25-30 feet. The problem with the lakes vs the ocean (as it makes sense to me) is that the wave intervals are much shorter. In my area a long wave interval is 5 sec. I can see on the NOAA that much longer ie: 12 sec intervals seem to be consistent with ocean waves.

I wish there was a buoy closer to my port that can offer accurate interval data, however where the buy is located the water is about 40 fathoms deep, and closer to my port it rapidly rises from 40 or 50 fathoms to 6. I am aware that this will decrease the interval, but I don't really know by how much. I look at the weather data and try to asses how long the wind has been blowing, but even undercurrents can spit up where the drop off is and bring about some brief periods of heavier waves with no warning.

Last night I was out, and my main engine quit due to water in the gas. I could have got it going again, but decided to try out my new trolling motor. At 3km/hr I made the best of the situation and tossed a couple lures off the side. As we puttered back to the dock I noticed the changes in waves from time to time. It was very calm overall, but every 10 minutes or so we would see a flurry of larger swells come up for 5 or ten minutes. Nothing to be worried about, but you couldn't see them coming at all. The water under the boat just changed.

I hear people say that these waters can be unpredictable and I think it is because of the topography. Our land is cliffs and rocks and crevices and hills. The underwater topography is similar to this.

I expect that over time I will learn the areas in the lake and how the bottom effects the waves - learn how to plot the best course for speed and comfort. Until that time, I had better beef up on my seamanship!

On that note, have you found that when looking at charts, (and you see the depth change) are there any guidelines to help anticipate conditions? For example, if I was moving from an area of 40 fathoms to one of 20 in depth, can I expect a certain rate of change in waves per change in depth? Does that make sense?

I will (before too long) meet up with someone who knows the waters well. After a few trips out on the water I am sure I will learn much.

I am glad I found this forum. Between the basket case boat I got, and the input from experienced mariners I have learned an awful lot.