knot and rope for winching

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gsbodine

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Hello All.<br /><br />Last week when I was winching my boat onto my old (and not-so-great) roller trailer, the winch rope knot suddenly gave out at the bow eye. The strange thing is, it's been holding for years. Just this time all of the sudden came unknotted. Now my question is how do I tie it back so that it doesn't come undone? <br /><br />I'm too many years removed from scouting, and don't konw of any quick online references for nautical knot-tying, and was hoping someone might save me a trip the library or B&N with a recommendation for tying the hook to the winch line. <br /><br />While I'm posting about this, I've noticed over the years that there are a lot more people using the nylon web strap instead of the nylon rope that I've always used. Is there an advantage to that, or is it just different?
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: knot and rope for winching

Go here web page <br />and follow the figure eight follow through.<br /><br />It will never come out again.
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
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Re: knot and rope for winching

I have both a rope on one and the strap on the other (2 boats). I have had it happen on both with the kot slipping and the strap threads letting loose. My solution is a bowline hitch and whip the ends together.<br /><br />I actually like the winch strap better... its smoother and worry free when winding in. No moving it back and forth to get it to wrap right.<br /><br />Bob
 

flashback

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Re: knot and rope for winching

I have always heard that a bowline knot is the strongest and have used it for almost everything including mountain climbing its the old rabbit up thru the hole around the tree and back down thru the hole knot.......you remember.......
 

gsbodine

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Re: knot and rope for winching

thanks y'all. i knnew this would be faster and more productive than googling alone. :D
 

JB

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Re: knot and rope for winching

Not only is a bowline a no-slip hitch, it can be untied easily if you choose to do so.<br /><br />BTW a knot is used to bind two lines together, a hitch is used to bind a line to an object like a hook. That is why you hitch your steed to a hitching post.<br /><br />This old terminology gets lost when you get into fishing lines. I suppose it would sound funny to talk about binding superline to a fishhook with a Uni-hitch. :D
 

gsbodine

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Re: knot and rope for winching

Ahhh...it's all starting to come back now... :D :)
 

TwoBallScrewBall

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Re: knot and rope for winching

So why do they call marriage 'getting hitched' if there are 2 people? Unless you think of it as the guy hitching himself to the ball and chain..... :D
 

Drowned Rat

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Re: knot and rope for winching

The figure 8 is much much stronger than a bowline and will not come untied as the line surges like a bowline can. A bowline only maintains about 50% of the lines integrity. A figure 8, about 75% and a splice, about 90%. You will never see a mountain climber use a bowline because they are apt to come untied.
 

ED21

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Re: knot and rope for winching

I've never had a bowline come untied. I use them all the time. <br />I've never climbed mountains though.<br />I agree with using a strap instead of rope. They are very handy.<br />There is a knot called a buntline hitch that won't come untied & can snug up tight to a hook. I don't use it enough to remember it, but I keep a xerox copy in my tool kit.
 

timbo1963

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Re: knot and rope for winching

Drowned Rat is correct. As a firefighter we must learn knots (hitches..whatever) the figure eight follow through is the best knot to use for attaching that will not come loose. A water knot might also be an ok choice, but the figure eight follow through is the best and very easy to learn.
 

gsbodine

Petty Officer 1st Class
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May 4, 2004
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Re: knot and rope for winching

Thanks DR (and everyone else). That site you linked had great diagrams. I printed a copy of them, just until I do it enough to remember. :rolleyes: <br /><br /><br />Thanks again!
 

18rabbit

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Nov 14, 2003
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3,202
Re: knot and rope for winching

The correct answer is: YOU DON’T!!! There is no safe or suitable rope/line/strap or knot for your application. I am looking at the picture of a blue boat just under your tag “Ol’ Norse”. I am presuming this is the boat you are trailering and it is in excess of 1000-lbs total weight, boat + motor. If so, you are a candidate for steel cable, not rope and not nylon strap. In this application the current standard/recommendation per the ABYC and the rest of the boating industry is steel cable only. Your auto insurance may require adherence to current industry standards as well. Think insurance and liability.<br /><br />Nylon strap has the advantage (1) of going on the winch straight and flat (2) limited stretching (3) you sew the strap to the hook so nothing can untie. The disadvantage is it must be kept under cover (out of the sun) as much as possible. Nylon hates UV light.
 

gsbodine

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Re: knot and rope for winching

Wow. Very interesting, 18rabbit. I had no idea, since this kind of rope's been used forever with this rig. And yes, the weight's on up around 1800. I guess this is a dumb question, but what's the ABYC? Where can I find all of these standards and recs online? Besides here of course ;) .<br /><br />It's really good to see you back. Where ya been, if you don't mind my asking? Thanks a lot, I'll look into steel cable winches. Mine's kinda rusty and old as it is, though I only trailer my boat about 500 yards from dry storage to the ramp.
 

Peter J Fraser

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Jun 22, 2003
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Re: knot and rope for winching

Hi all,<br />I have only ever used 5/16" wire cable with a crimped eye and thimble on my winch. Fitted with a 3/8" S/steel 'S' hook on the end to catch the boat eye. I replace the rope about every 4 - 5 years or if it starts to show damage. Never used wire rope with a manilla rope core, nice and flexible but collapses easy under tension. I dont trust the synthetic straps and have seen many of those with some very dodgy "knots" at various points along them.<br />We also have to have another chain and shackle to secure the boat onto the trailer at the bow to hold it if the rope breaks, also required to secure the stern down onto the trailer or we would get booked by the Police for an insecure load. I always let the tension off the winch rope when the trailer is not being towed. <br /><br />Peter
 

KennyKenCan

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Re: knot and rope for winching

Hey 18rabbit,<br /><br />Where you been?<br /><br />Welcome back.
 

18rabbit

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Re: knot and rope for winching

Ol' Norse - The ABYC is the American Boat and Yacht Council. They are the self appointed guardians of safe boating and every other entity (including insurance companies) recognizes that…even the USCG. The ABYC has recently decided the black (+) wire in DC circuitry can be confused with the black (ungrounded or hot) wire in AC circuitry, so... You probably noticed marine DC wires are now available in yellow (+) and red (-) … black is gone. Thank the ABYC. They have contacted the appropriate wiring police for terra firma electrical standards, too, so look for DC wiring everywhere in the whole world to change colors over the next few years.<br /><br />You cannot look at the ABYC stuff for free and you must be a member to buy it at a discounted price. www.abyc.com However, if you read enough boating stuff you will eventually come across a lot of the regs, especially as they change. Private websites often make portions of the regs available if it relates to products they sell.
 

twhitmore11

Recruit
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Oct 18, 2011
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I'm noticing a lot of interesting ideas on this thread. Let me tie some of them together. The knot on your winch hook is not likely to be your most likely point of failure with your winch due to loading if tied right. With a synthetic line, it's more likely the point of failure due to friction at that point is from induced heat. The ratchet gear is actually your most likely point of failure provided your line is in good condition. Alternatively, the field windings on your electric winch motor is where you're going to see your failure when your winch is on. When it's off, it's the ratchet gear again. Nylon lines are less susceptible to uV damage than polyester lines or mixed blend polyester lines are, but they will still suffer from uV damage, a little bit. Keep them out of the sun as much as possible anyway. The stiffness of your line determines whether a bowline will spring loose on you, or not. For most marine grade lines this won't be a problem. For ropes used in logging work it is. Double figure eights do have better protection against loosening. Their biggest advantage, however, is that they hold more of their strength than other knots when under extreme load.

But none of this tells you your real problem when you're attaching your winch hook to your winch line. In addition to damage from extreme loading, synthetic lines are also damaged from heat due to friction. Continued loading will cause the line to become damaged from the heat of friction if there's play against the eye of the winch. That heat will cause the line to melt and weaken. Whenever a dynamic load is placed onto your hook and line, if there is any play between the hook and the line, that play will translate into friction and heat. That heat will damage your line. The most important thing you can do is to take all of the play out of the knot between your winch line and your hook. To do this, neither a bowline nor a double figure eight is all that helpful. A double lashing is better. Run two loops through the eye in your hook. Take the free end and bring it through both loops. Then to finish off the knot pull the hook through one of the loops to tighten the loop down down around the running end of the knot. The other thing this does is that it has two windings holding your hook in place. Normally, with a line through a pulley, you're not increasing the holding strength of your line by increasing the loops. You're reducing the amount of work involved in moving the line, but the tension on the line is uniform throughout. However, when you have a line over a bight, that friction holding the line in place means that you are also increasing the amount of load that can be handled for the total number of loops on the bight. This is why lashings work, and so in this instance multiple windings are better.

You should never rely on your winch line to hold your boat in place while trailering. Again, the single most common point of failure is the ratchet gear. They're only rated for about 300 lbs. That's what a good marine line is rated for. A climbing line might be rated for static loads of over 500 lbs, but they're generally too stiff for marine applications. Using a steel cable comes with some serious drawbacks. Having a cable with a static load rating of 800 - 1,200 lbs does you no good if your ratchet gear is only rated for 300 lbs. Plus, there are some other safety concerns with using a steel cable. If you do have a cable failure or cable separation, that cable is going to whip back and really hurt someone, and that someone is probably not going to be wearing any protective clothing when it happens, either. I wouldn't recommend using a steel cable for that very reason. And once again, your winch cable is not what is supposed to be holding your boat on the trailer when you're road bound. It's only there to get your boat onto the trailer. You want your safety line at the bow roller to be under tension when you're trailering, and you want to take the tension out of your winch line to prevent damage to both your ratchet gear and your winch line. This is where having multiple loops of your safety line through your bow eye is really important. But that is still not the single thing that should be holding your boat onto your trailer. Your boat may very well weigh more than 2,500 lbs, but these lines are not handling that load, unless you're rappelling your boat straight down the side of a cliff. Also, for most recreational boats, the fiberglass holding your bow eye in place can't take much of a load, so steel cable is overkill. What you're really concerned about is the load on your safety line at the bow eye. The load on your lines is the friction load for moving the boat forwards and backwards on its bunks or rollers while your road bound. This is why tie down straps at the stern are so important. When pulled down tight, they are increasing the friction of those contacts. They're not actually holding anything in place. They're just there to increase friction - and to prevent movement up off the contact points from bouncing. Similarly, a bow bridle that goes over the deck and around the bow cleats and then under the trailer tongue is also a good idea for increasing the friction of the boat against its contact points on the trailer. All these things increase the friction of your boat on its trailer, to reduce the movement and the dynamic loading of your boat against its bow nose secure point. There should be no means for movement at that point. That is what will keep your boat safe when you're trailering it, and that is the job of your safety line - not your winch line.

Tim Whitmore, former LT USCG
Alumni, U.S. Naval Academy
https://www.facebook.com/tim.whitmore.399
 
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