The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

[jay_merrill]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

The fact that they won't tell you if it is totaled or not, is suspicious in my mind. It stinks of not acting in good faith. There isn't any legitimate reason why they should not tell you what their position is. Two months have passed and they want everything and anything from you, yet they will not tell you a darn thing.

Think about this - if the loss is, in fact, total, they are looking at a very large claim. That being the case, some level of caution on their part is somewhat understandable. But, suppose it isn't a total loss. To what ever degree the loss is less than total, Progressive's interest in making a big deal out of this, diminishes. It is sounding more and more like they just have a policy of trying to get out of claims, and that the amount of the actual loss isn't a factor.

I hate to say it, but I think you are going to end up having to sue them.

 

[ToothDocNick]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Can I as who your lawyer sent the letter to? Did he send it to the person the claims adjuster gave or did he send it to corporate headquarters attention top management? This sounds a lot like Nandy has said that as it moved up the chain of command either papers were lost or they wanted more info. You may also want to talk to your lawyer about having him contact the state insurance bureau. He may get farther than you had, especially after the letters were sent, a reply was finally forced from them, no response to some of your requests, and the general beating around the bush you and your lawyer have gotten. Another thought is to have him contact the attorney general for your state. If progressive is not acting in good faith the attorney general can force the issue if they are not following state guidelines. Just some thoughts.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I can't wait until tomorrow to talk to the attorney. I know he initially faxed the letter to the guy who was handling the investigation, but there was 2 guys involved. The first guy was the jerk who I initially dealt with in the beginning, the other called me one day and said he was helping the first guy out and that's who he sent the letter to.

I just hope my attorney sent the letter certified because it would be easy for them to say they never received it. Actually, to this day, they never acknowledged in writing or otherwise as to the existence of that letter we sent. They sent me the reservation of rights letter with no CC to my attorney.

The way it's been going makes me very uneasy and distrusting of their motives. This is why I'm so hesitant to just do what they want. I just don't trust them at this point...

 

[Cptkid570]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Now that you have an attorney involved, I doubt Progressive will tell you anything, they'll probably only deal directly with your attorney.

I think you should provide them with anything they ask you for... even if it may be a red flag to them, don't they still have to prove that you did it? If you didn't steal your own boat, then you have nothing to hide at all.

The thing is -- if they are asking you for this type of documentation, they are already suspecting something -- or at least investigating it. So, wouldn't you think that your failure to provide what they want would be very suspicious of you? If you act like you have nothing to hide, then they'll feel like you aren't hiding anything.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Next chapter...

My attorney informed me today that it's getting more complicated and that it's going to be expensive going forward. Mainly because of the runaround these 2 guys are giving my attorney and his office it's become more involved than he thought.

In the meantime, I called one of the adjusters to ask him to fax my bank something that says that my boat has been totaled so they can suspend payments. Because at this point, I don't even know where my boat is anymore but I'm still paying for it.

I also asked him why he never sent me or my attorney anything that says that the boat is indeed total or why they won't specify why they need all my financial info but he wouldn't answer me. I suppose it's because I have an attorney but I don't know why they're being so secretive about everything...

 

[lkbum]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Don't like the sound of that.. Again, be very cautious with your attorney... I'm sure there are good ones out there, but they make more money if a fight insues. It has been my experience, that it is easy to become distracted and attracted by the fight. Emotions can sometimes get the better of you. You need to start putting ALL communication with progressive in writing. Follow up your phone calls today with written communication and ask for written responses (you can do this, not your attorney). Next, advise Progressive that your attorney is ADVISING you, not REPRESENTING you (unless you have signed something or commnicated something different, either with your attorney or progressive). Progressive will only deal with your attorney if they have been provided wirtten proof that he is representing you. Ask your attorney if he has provided this to Progressive (notice of representation) and if not, instruct him that he is advising you, for the moment. It's important that you make all requests to progressive in writing and ask for repsonse in writing. Your attorney can advise you on what to ask and what to do with the repsonses. If things do continue to go south, then your attorney can represent you in the resulting law suit. As a side note.... Look at this web site www.clarkhoward.com, this is a syndicated talk show host out of atlanta on consumer affairs. You do not need to be on his radio show to recieve advice. His show is national and if you look on the left column of the web site you will see a phone number for a consumer action center "team clark". They will schedule an appointment for you to talk to true experts in this field. They are free and you will most likely deal with an insurance expert or lawyer. Can't hurt, and may save you money by pointing out consumer advocate organizations in florida designed to help people in your situation.

 

[Cptkid570]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Have you tried speaking to your adjuster's supervisor? Maybe the supervisor will be clearer with you as to what's going on. Maybe the adjuster is a jerk but the supervisor is cool. You never know.

Find out who the supervisor is and be polite to the supervisor and see if you can get some clarifications on this.

If your attorney charges you 30% of what this settles for.. you could be out $33,000 just because you had the attorney get involved.

Seems pretty cut and dry. The boat is a total. The stated value on the policy is $99,000. Jump through the insurance company's hoops for a little while, then get your $99,000 and move on with life.

Your insurance company will probably have to be in touch with your boat loan company and get a payoff letter for your lien. That's what happend when a lady totalled out my car.

 

[freddyray21]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I think you should provide them with anything they ask you for... even if it may be a red flag to them, don't they still have to prove that you did it? If you didn't steal your own boat, then you have nothing to hide at all.

the insurance company does not have to prove anything. They can deny the claim based on their belief he was involved. It would be up to him then to sue progressive and get a court judgement. He is in somewhat of a no win situation as if he does not provide the information then they can refuse to pay based on that. If he does provide it they can make something out of nothing and refuse to pay. Keep in mind an insurance company never has to pay unless a court of competent jurisdiction tells them they have to pay. The only reason they pay ever is they know they would lose in court. I think they will pay him, they may just want to stall it until next year to not have it on this years books.

 

[freddyray21]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Next, advise Progressive that your attorney is ADVISING you, not REPRESENTING you (unless you have signed something or commnicated something different, either with your attorney or progressive).

You cannot un ring a bell. Once the attorney faxed or wrote them he is the go to guy as far as the insurance company is concerned. The insurance company can get sued at this point for bothering him once he has gotten a lawyer involved.

 

[bassinbeno]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

My 2 cents. If I could afford a 100k boat I could garuntee you I could afford a good attorney. The adjuster you dealed with would also be on the unemployment line by know. Progressive would be licking my left testicle to make full payment ( maybe this aint appropriate) but that is the way I feel. Sorry for your loss hope all works out for the best in the end. Also check with your home owners insurance policy you may have some coverage you aint aware of on that vessel.

 

[lkbum]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

You cannot un ring a bell. Once the attorney faxed or wrote them he is the go to guy as far as the insurance company is concerned. The insurance company can get sued at this point for bothering him once he has gotten a lawyer involved.

Not so sure about that.... From first hand experience with Progressive. In addition to a wave runner theft where I was the insured by Progressive, I was involved in a traffic accident caused by a driver who was insured by Progressive. The other driver was at fault, cited by the State Patrol, multiple witnesses etc. Progressive was being very unresponsive so I had my business attorney send them a very stern letter (probably similar to what was sent on bigfishs behalf). In response, Progressive sent me a form to sign that indicated that I was being represented by that attorney before they would respond to him. I told them in writing, that he was in an advisment capacity and NOT representing me at the time and to please respond to his request directly with me. They did and offered to send him a copy of all future correspondance. This was for an incident in georga, so the laws may be different. Also there were some potential injury claims (my daughter spent the night in the hospital), so I think they were more interested in a speedy settlement.. I guess it matters if the bell has truly been rung or not.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

the insurance company does not have to prove anything. They can deny the claim based on their belief he was involved. It would be up to him then to sue progressive and get a court judgement. He is in somewhat of a no win situation as if he does not provide the information then they can refuse to pay based on that. If he does provide it they can make something out of nothing and refuse to pay. Keep in mind an insurance company never has to pay unless a court of competent jurisdiction tells them they have to pay. The only reason they pay ever is they know they would lose in court. I think they will pay him, they may just want to stall it until next year to not have it on this years books.

That's exactly how I feel lately, like I can't win with these guys. If I deny anything they'll use that against me and if I give them everything they'll try to invent something to get out of it.

I have to give a second recorded statement 2 weeks from now in their offfice. In the meantime, I'm waiting for the attorney to tell me if I have to give them 6 months worth of credit card records...

It's moving very slow...

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Don't like the sound of that.. Again, be very cautious with your attorney... I'm sure there are good ones out there, but they make more money if a fight insues. It has been my experience, that it is easy to become distracted and attracted by the fight. Emotions can sometimes get the better of you. You need to start putting ALL communication with progressive in writing. Follow up your phone calls today with written communication and ask for written responses (you can do this, not your attorney). Next, advise Progressive that your attorney is ADVISING you, not REPRESENTING you (unless you have signed something or commnicated something different, either with your attorney or progressive). Progressive will only deal with your attorney if they have been provided wirtten proof that he is representing you. Ask your attorney if he has provided this to Progressive (notice of representation) and if not, instruct him that he is advising you, for the moment. It's important that you make all requests to progressive in writing and ask for repsonse in writing. Your attorney can advise you on what to ask and what to do with the repsonses. If things do continue to go south, then your attorney can represent you in the resulting law suit. As a side note.... Look at this web site www.clarkhoward.com, this is a syndicated talk show host out of atlanta on consumer affairs. You do not need to be on his radio show to recieve advice. His show is national and if you look on the left column of the web site you will see a phone number for a consumer action center "team clark". They will schedule an appointment for you to talk to true experts in this field. They are free and you will most likely deal with an insurance expert or lawyer. Can't hurt, and may save you money by pointing out consumer advocate organizations in florida designed to help people in your situation.

The thing with my attorney is that because he's a friend of a friend he's been charging me almost nothing to do all this. I thought he was charging me regular rates but he's been pretty generous with me so far.

I thought about telling Progressive that I didn't retain him yet but he stated in one letter that I did so I don't know if I can undo that now. I'm also worried if it would be wise to drop the attorney now in the middle of the battle...

I don't sleep too good these days...

 

[lkbum]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

That's good, I wasn't suggesting dropping the attorney, just offering a way for Progressive to communicate with both of you. If he does everything, it will cost more to accomplish some things you are already doing. It's good to have a friend in the field, someone you can trust. As far as the sleep goes, check out the pic below. It's from the accident that was caused by the driver insured by progressive.... The lady crossed the highway in North Georgia, hit our car, we flipped and had a pretty rough ride. Other than some severe bumps and bruises, all were ok. But it took about a year to get over. It infuriated me that progressive did not return calls for nearly 3 weeks in this case. They had all kind of excuses, but in the end pay for everything, I think becuase we didn't seek any "pain and suffering" damages. It was amazing how many ambulance chasing attorneys advised us to otherwise.
I know that was a little off topic, but in the grand scheme of things, hopefully this will turn out to be a minor inconvenance.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I agree with Ikbum. There is a difference between being advised and being represented. That being the case, the bell has not yet been rung. If it had, Progressive wouldn't be talking to him at all.

To get back to the core issue, what is your attorney's current thinking on whether or not you should give them what they want?

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I agree with Ikbum. There is a difference between being advised and being represented. That being the case, the bell has not yet been rung. If it had, Progressive wouldn't be talking to him at all.

To get back to the core issue, what is your attorney's current thinking on whether or not you should give them what they want?

He has some reservations but he's leaving it up to me...

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Here's what I think I would do ... send Progressive a letter, certified mail, return receipt, stating bluntly that you feel that they are improperly refusing to honor the policy, but that you would be willing to address their concerns. With that, invite them to come to your attorney's office, where they may see the documents that they want, and ask whatever questions they want.

Give them until January 1 to reply and set up a date. See what they do. Frankly, this is a game of figuring out how to box them in. Its also a game of assesing the risk you face in complying with what they want. If you can substantiate a pattern by Progressive of successfully denying claims based on these fishing expeditions, don't comply. If on the other hand, you come up with information that suggests that they tend to pay when they get what they want, you may have to provide it.

My gut is telling me that what is going on is that they hope to get out of the payment altogether, but will fall back to just delaying to gain the value of the interest on the money. Someone else also mentioned delaying until after the end of the year. I would say that isn't far fetched. If you think about the money involved in hundreds, if not thousands of claims against Progressive at any given time, the money adds up in a big way.

 

[npd4432]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Wow, I just read this thread from the beginning and it took me about an hour.
I would be livid if I were in your shoes. I am taking this as a lesson from bigfish, I am going to review my policy immediately and comb through the fine print. Best of luck, In the intrest of time I am hoping someone from NBC is reading this and will make a Law&Order episode about it.

Again, Best of luck

 

[QC]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I am hoping someone from NBC is reading this and will make a Law&Order episode about it.

I think that bigfish would have to shoot and kill a Progressive claims analyst first. Stay tuned . . .

 

[Cptkid570]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

The insurance company cannot refuse to pay you just because they don't want to. They have to act in good faith. If Progressive ends up denying your claim, I'd imagine your attorney will throw in a bad faith suit.

I just think that you should cooperate. I don't know how you've been treating them, but if you came accross like a jerk to them, they could just be keeping you on the back burner to be jerks too.