60 HP Yamaha ??

JB

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Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

Compression should be within a span of 10-15% on all cylinders. There is no spec (and there shouldn't be) on psi.
 

kaferhaus

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

Compression should be within a span of 10-15% on all cylinders. There is no spec (and there shouldn't be) on psi.

I really hate to see folks repeating this over and over.... the "differential" will only tell you whether there is a "balance" issue with the engine regards compression.... as in a problem with one or more cyls.

The "spec" is a number that most manufacturers will not release for public consumption.

The actually reading is a very good indicator of the engine's condition and useful remaining life. For example, take two identical engines, if one is producing 140psi per cyl and the other is producing 110psi... I can guarantee you the 140psi engine is producing more HP than the one at 110psi.

A engine is nothing more than a air pump. The high comp engine is going to pull a larger volume of fuel mixture into the cyls, atomize that fuel better and produce more power.

I do not profess to be a outboard guru as I'm certainly not, but I have built racing engines for over 30yrs both 2 and 4 stroke. With everything else equal, compression translates directly to increased power, period.

In my experience with most 2 cycle engines 135-140psi indicates a engine with little to no wear (not talking racing engines here) 120-125 indicates one that has maybe 75% its remaining serviceable life left (which could be years) but is going to be a little down on HP. Once one gets in the 90-100psi range it's only putting out about 70-80% of it's rated HP and I wouldn't be getting to far away from shore with it without a backup.

There are exceptions to the numbers above depending on the beginning "spec"... some engines are not relying on those high numbers to produce their rated HP, some are using more displacment.... which of course equals more airflow.

I've seen engines "run" on 70-80psi but they were pigs. My son had a 20 on a little tin boat that he had to prop down to a 7P prop to get it to make rpm under load we threw a 9.9 on it with 130 psi and the boat actually went faster at the same rpm.... the 20 weighs 15lbs more than the 9.9...

search around a bit... some mfgs do in fact publish compression numbers.
 

JB

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Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

The reason there is no spec is because there are so many differences in guages, temp, conditions and technique.

Readings on one engine can vary as much as 50psi from the above differences.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
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Sep 1, 2003
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Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

I really really disagree with the most misinformed poster from Mobile.
I have seen 2 and 3 cyl 50,55 evinrudes,early seventies, that run 185 PSI typically.
the late 80s 200 and 225 looper OMC outboards typically ran about 80 PSI when new.
2 strokes simply dont wear like 4 strokes.
once a two stroke ring starts blowing gas past the rings death of the engine is imminent and assured.
by the time the operator realizes there is an issue the piston is burned.
test the compression on a late 80s 200 yamaha and you will typically see about 125 PSI and that same 200 horse power in the same 1989 200 evinrude or johnson is typically about 80 PSI.
I prefer a leakdown test over a compression test any day.
 

kaferhaus

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Messages
250
Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

Call the local dealer's service manager. If he's consumer friendly, He'll give you the factory spec numbers on that engine. I've never had a problem getting that information, not once. Some mfgs publish it, you just have to dig around for it.

Yes, different engines are designed to produce their rated horsepower at different compression numbers. EVERY engine has a compression spec and to say otherwise is absolute BS.

Some of these "experts" would lead you to believe that so long as it's running and the cylinders, pistons, rings are "worn" evenly then the engine is making it's designed HP. That is simply not true. As a engine wears it loses it's ability to make rated HP.

Buying a used engine without load testing it is a huge crap shoot. In the absence of that, compression and leak testing is your best bet.

Most dealers here WILL give at least a 30day warranty on a used engine some offer 90day warranties. Any dealer that won't give at least a 30day warranty on a used engine is telling you he has no confidence in what he's selling you.

If you're looking at a "by owner" engine I'd require the seller to allow your service tech to evaluate it first.

There's a standard "technique" for testing compression... it's published maybe a thousand places on the web... it's the exact same technique that the factories use.

Run the engine to normal operating temperature, remove all spark plugs, screw gauge into cyl and with throttle held wide open spin the engine at least 5 revolutions, read the gauge..... I test each cyl twice.

It's not rocket science.

Sure you may get a guage that's off a lb or two that's not going to make a difference. AND gauges are easily calibrated.

Again the "number doesn't matter" is pure internet commando nonsense. The difference between what the compression should be on a new engine and what your's is is a direct indication of the wear on that engine.

Do a little research on engine compression and what those numbers mean regards engine condition. And just because some guy has 3000 posts on a internet forum does not make him an expert at anything other than posting to forums.

You can get a lot of useful information here (I have) but you can also get a bunch of "wives tales" that's nothing more than guys repeating over and over again what some other guy posted years ago and has now somehow become "gospel".

Does anyone really think these mfgs just design a engine, build it and then what ever the numbers end up being is good?

Anybody?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
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Messages
45,907
Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

There's a standard "technique" for testing compression... it's published maybe a thousand places on the web... it's the exact same technique that the factories use.

Run the engine to normal operating temperature, remove all spark plugs, screw gauge into cyl and with throttle held wide open spin the engine at least 5 revolutions, read the gauge..... I test each cyl twice.

It's not rocket science.

And just because some guy has 3000 posts on a internet forum does not make him an expert at anything other than posting to forums.

You can get a lot of useful information here (I have) but you can also get a bunch of "wives tales" that's nothing more than guys repeating over and over again what some other guy posted years ago and has now somehow become "gospel".

Does anyone really think these mfgs just design a engine, build it and then what ever the numbers end up being is good?

Anybody?

Well, twenty or thirty thousand posts (maybe forty thousand?) helping DIY boaters diagnose their engines is an education not available to all. Really hard to match with only a few hundred.

DIY boaters rarely have a shop to set up their engines and run them under load to "normal" operating temperature. They often have no ability to even start the engine.

DIY boaters rarely have a perfect, fully charged battery.

What is done with the throttle has been shown many times to be irrelevant.

DIY boaters rarely have the three or four hands required to do it the way it is done in QC at the factory.

I have been messing with outboards for about 60 years and helping DIY boaters diagnose and repair their outboards. . .nine years of it here, with excellent results. I have never seen an outboard wear out, but I have seen thousands lose compression in one or two cylinders from mechanical failure (including gaskets).

Contrary to auto techs and shops that lust to sell rebuilds I treat compression testing as a way for DIY boaters to locate individual cylinders that have failed. I am not going to let someone new to this environment change that.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
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Messages
20,066
Re: 60 HP Yamaha ??

while testing compression on a two stroke can give an indication as to overall cylinder sealing abiliy two strokes of modern outboard designs require both primary and secondary compression.
if the rings leak on the secondary side it forces hot combusting,not just combustion, gasses past the rings,past the piston skirts,eating off the lubrication and eroding metal on the way, into the crankcase area.
as the reeds are trying to seal the crankcase we just contaminated the incoming air,fuel and lubrication mix with spending and spent gasses.
thats why two strokes dont lose compression over a long period of time.
they tend to die suddenly and violently.
have seen scuffed cylinders show perfect compression after the head gasket was replaced only to destroy themselves due to the gasses blowing past the scuff marks.
I started doing this work as a proffesional when I was about 15 years old.
so far I have been a fairly accomplished machinist.
probably on of the few posting here thats ever run a boring bar or a crankshaft grinder or a valve faceing or seat machine.
I also did 6 years with the United States Navy as a firecontrolman in the navies advanced electronics field.
was medically retired as an E5.
for the past 20 years I have had my own shop doing my own thing and in past years have been factory certified for warrenty repair and service on Force,Mercury,Mariner,Suzuki,Tohatsu,Honda, Volvo and Mercruiser.
I am currently one of about 50 Yamaha Master technicians in the US.
you can look it up on the Yamaha website under training.
I am the one from Joes Marine in Wanchese NC.
for years the backbone of my living wages was from OMC products altough I never went to school for any of it.
I do still own quite a bit of specialty tools for OMC stuff until about 2002.
Do I waste to much time here? probably but I do get to help folks occasionally and I do try to wade through the internet wives tales.
most manufactures DO NOT post numbers and usually when they do its with a disclaimer to look for pressure variations rather than specific numbers.
and some Yamaha outboards wont even do that.
most V6 2 strokes from yesteryear had about a 15 PSI difference from top to bottom designed into it.
most 3 cyl motors back in the late 80?s to the mid 90?s had the same 15 PSI variation designed into the engine.
cant tell you how many folks have pulled heads only to find nothing wrong as this variation isnt published you just have to know about it,OR do a leakdown test.
never heard of any factory tester actually checking compression,most did not even check timing, thats why we PDI things.
and yes I have talked with many testers from OMC and merc. some are actually instructors for yamaha now.
but you will find,warm or cold, the PSI variation doesnt change much at all.
if its blown up cold its just blown up and will be when warm.
kinda like when you pull the plugs and they are covered with water or Aluminium throw off.
I am NOT sticking my compression tester on that hole.
I will use my snap on bore scope and take pictures or video of it,I will leak down test it and usually pull that head and have a close look.
I already know mechanical damage has occured just a matter of finding out how much.
I dont work on many 1959 jonnyrude twins nor many 1968 4cyl mercs.
most of what I deal with is offshore with V6 and V8 twins and they have to run correctly.
 
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