Suzuki piston ring problem.

James R

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Feb 1, 2007
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I have never experienced this before. I have rebuilt several Suzuki 115 and 140 motors and others. Had one hole bored and three honed on this motor. The oversize bored hole shows dead nuts the honed holes show 0.0015 over standard. The rings for the oversize show 0.010 gap. The new Suzuki made standard rings show 0.024 gap in the honed holes. Way out of spec of course. An old ring from this motor shows 0.020. Has anyone had a similar problem. I am returning the bad rings to Browns Point.
This of course is a real pain as this motor is hanging.
 

erniefish

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Dec 11, 2007
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153
Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

dead nuts = right on the money,or for the challenged,within specs.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

I would use a known good dial bore indicator and double check the bore size on the honed holes.
I suspect the holes were actually bored past the service limit with the hone.
honeing actually bores the cylinders just not as quick as a boring bar.
its also why I dont patch motors.
 

James R

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Feb 1, 2007
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2,664
Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

Thank you all for your responses. The bore gage is checked against a calibrated micrometer and the bores were measured additionally by a first class machine shop. I dont have master rings for all the bores I encounter. I have never had cause to doubt my gages.
In my many years as an engineer, accustomed to measuring in millionths, I came across two well known manufacturers of rings who accidentally produced rings of the wrong dimmensions.
I can only conclude that the rings in question are too short.
 

James R

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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

Does anyone have a source for aftermarket Suzuki pistons apart from Wiseco.
Wiseco use their own shape piston ring and as far as I know they don't fit the OEM pistons.
 

sturdavj

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Jun 10, 2006
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240
Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

Measuring in the millionths?, Damm that?s what I call ?dead nuts on?
 

James R

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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

I am working with Suzuki on this and will post the result.
 

James R

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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

I don't have anything that meets my needs from Suzuki in LA. They say that they have changed suppliers down the years and this could account for the size discrepancy and that the rings are within the service limits. Crap of course.
As they are unable to supply oversize rings without the pistons, it follows that I will be using after market pistons and rings in future.
Consider that if an oversize ring with an oversize piston is accidentally broken in assembly, then Suzuki can only offer a complete piston and ring set. No spare rings. In addition the pin and clips are extra, not included in the piston kit.
Now I know.
 

rodbolt

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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

.001 is 1 thousanth, .0001 is one tenth of a thousanth what are you using to measure .000001 of an inch ?
I have used optical comparators and some other special equipment but other than electronic equipment for radars and other micro-wave transmitters never tried to measure anything that small and I am not an engineer.
there is no suzuki of LA.
maybe your dealer isnt helping much.
but your desription is incredibly flawed at this point.
bore size is bore size and the piston ring end gap is controlled by that fact and that fact alone, piston size ,for end gap checking, is not only irrelevent its not even needed.
you say the hole that was bored shows the proper end gap, means that hole is the correct size.
as you dont indicate the other 3 are anything other than standard bore then standard rings will fit and again piston size is irrelavent.
if the bore was oversized and standard rings are used ring gap will be excessive.
however its posible the block was changed at somepoint and you may have an incorrect standard ring for that block.
years ago when we used wiesco and a few other manufactures forged pistons we had to bore the hole bigger than factory standards to allow for the difference in the skirt expansion charcteristics between cast and forged pistons.
now most of the piston skirts are cam ground to allow for the expansion difference.
what you may wish to do is hunt through the various years of the inline 4 suzuki and see if the standard bore size changed, its always possible it did.
never heard of not being able to supply rings only but who knows.
suzuki,like yamaha and a few others normally sells the piston,pin,clips,rings and pin bearing spacers and pin bearings all seperatly.
the days of fitting pins to pistons left about 30 years ago.
if you have ever run a CNC lathe or a CNC grinder you will know why.

I spent many years working for a suzuki dealer and never had an issue with a rebuild, spent many years working with a J/E dealership that specialized in engine reconditioning and did all the machine work inhouse.
had my own shop since 95 and I specialized in engine rebuilds using that former dealership for my mchine work.
other than 6 years in the USN as an FC and 6 years programming and setting up CNC lathes and mills this is about all I have done since I was 15 and I am almost 48 now.
over the years I have been factory certified to perform warrenty work for mercury/mariner,force,suzuki,tohatsu,honda and yamaha outboards. I am currently certified for yamaha outboards and Volvo and mercruiser sterndrives so I have seen about evey parts issue you can imagine.
finnished bore size is finnished bore size and the piston rings are made for that reguardless of piston or ring manufcture.
however you cannot mix rings between most piston manufactures unless they claim to be the same as OEM.
but that only has to do with the piston ring land desighn,square,keyston,semi-keystone, as not all pistons used the same groove design.
so I would start by looking at the factory service manual standard bore size, measure the actual bore size and see if its still within service limits. usually about .002" over standard bore size.
then place the ring squarly in the bore and measuer the gap at 3 loctions in the bore. near the top, in the middle and at the bottom of the bore.
should stay exactly the same all the way down
use the piston to seat the ring squarely in the bore for all measurements.
if the bore was egged or tapered and the hone used was either a dingle ball or a spring loaded glaze breaker it will hone the taper or egg back into the bore.
thats why I will only hone with a rigid stone set up that if I wish I can actually bore with.
but I think someone is feeding you a line at the parts counter.
 

parrfive

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May 20, 2008
Messages
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Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

As usual Rodbolt is 100% correct. We don?t always see eye to eye but in this case he?s spot on. If this is a costumers motor your doing him a great injustice boring only one hole. That?s in no way the correct way to repair any motor with more than 1 cylinder. Bite the bullet and buy three more piston kits and see the costumer next year for a tune up. Just my opinion.
 

James R

Commander
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Feb 1, 2007
Messages
2,664
Re: Suzuki piston ring problem.

I wish to thank you all, especially Rod Bolt, for taking all the time to make such an informative post. Please continue to be so helpful.
All boring and honing was done with the best equipment, rigid stones and all.
I spent many years as an Engineer with the superfinishing machinery manufacturer Supfina and worked with Kellenberger, Fortuna, Voumard, Bahmuller grinding machine manufacturers, Movomatic/Etamic and Marposs gaging manufacturers, to mention but a few. From all this I was fortunate to gain good knowledge of manufacturing and measuring precision parts. Now, in my retirement, I find it very useful.
As a result of all this, most exhaustive checks were made to ensure my facts were in order.
Suzuki does not provide spare oversize rings, or piston pins and clips in their piston kits.
Yes I agree it is necessary to allow 0.001 more in the bore for Wiseco pistons and that each manufacturers rings may not fit other pistons. All common sense really.
It is preferable to bore all cylinders but cost is a big factor especially today.
Doing my best to keep em on the water so to speak.
Will have to go with the Suzuki standard rings even though I am not at all satisfied. The service limit on the gap is 0.031" and I get 0.024. Not really happy but not much I can do.
I may be wrong about Suzuki being in LA but Suzuki America is on the west coast I believe. A 714 number.
Thanks again all you guys and keep it coming.
 
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