No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES180

chaiyz

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Nov 7, 2013
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8
Hi there. I purchased a 1994 GW Invader Bravo with a dual axle trailer from Craigslist. I'd seen pictures and the price was right so I assumed I'd have to put in a transom, stringers and deck. After picking up the boat I'm a little shocked.
I can see down the engine bilge and it looks great. The ski locker floor feels stiff and the stringers on both sides feel solid, the deck doesn't feel soft but the drivers side has detached from the stringer and I can feel it holding just above the stringer. Anyway, the real problem is under the passenger deck. It looks like the boat hit one of the skids or something, the fiberglass is cracked on a strake on the left front. The crack goes thru completely someone has added what looks like poly filler in an attempt to seal it up. All will need to be sanded down, properly patched filled and gel-coated. Before I get to that though, I want to know more about this engine. The guy I purchased it from first told me the engine was free but when he delivered it he said he tried to turn it over with a ratchet but was only loosening the bolt. I'm not sure what he was doing. When I opened the engine cover I quickly see an empty battery tray, a ground wire, no positive terminal and no starter. I then see what appears to be the starter wire with it's 2 silanoid wires attached. This is routed to where the missing starter should be so I'm assuming that I can jump power to it, and ground and at least test the trim pump. Yep, that worked. But now I need to put in a battery, and a terminal and wire. Here's where I get a little forgetful. I'm pretty sure this wire goes to the starter bank as well and maybe one side of the sylanoid. I can't find an easy schematic and I don't see a remote sylanoid anywhere.

So I'm assuming that if I install a starter, and connect what is already there, I just need a positive battery cable and terminal and then the other end connects to the large connection at the starter. I'm pretty sure this is right but want to make sure as it's been 15 years since I've played with a boat.

Also, I've removed all the belts on the motor and I'd hoped to have all the plugs out to try to see if I could rotate the crank by hand. If anyone has any other tips on this, I'm just trying to figure out if shes really siezed or just hydrolic locked.

Anyway, lots to think about. Getting dark so I guess I'll wait till morning to pull the last couple plugs and see if she will turn over.

That seatback needs recovering by a professional.
DSCF8427.jpg
The 4.3GS
DSCF8412.jpg


I've never seen a boat with a 2nd cap. Also, in the engine compartment, there is a large preformed piece of fiberglass that goes on both sides of the engine and looks like it will make removing the engine a pain.
DSCF8413.jpg


More thoughts, Can anyone tell me about the construction methods of GW Invaders? This boat isn't rotten but the build quality seems "quick". The whole tray in the engine compartment and front seats that are not part of the top cap but a seprate cap put on before the top went on.

Anyone with more info about this boat and it's construction methods please chime in. Trying to look back to the transom is a real tight. The overhang from the cap makes it hard to fit myeslf inside.

So, just to make sure I'm doing this right.

I know I need at least, a starter and battery. I'll pick up a battery tomarrow but I don't want to buy the starter unless the motor isn't siezed. Maybe I could find a local guy with a drop in 4.3. I'm near Jax Florida so go figure.
 

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chaiyz

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Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Having a hard time posting a whole photobucket album. Anyone got any tips?
 

alldodge

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Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

:welcome: to iboats

Looks like you have a bunch of stuff going on so lets start with the engine. As time progresses we can get into other things. Do you know the serial number of the engine? the serial number is usually found on the flame arrestor cover. If not how about what size is it (appears to be small block V8).

Pull all the plugs and squirt some olil in each cylinder, let it set a couple hours the try to turn over by hand.

The positive battery cable goes to the starter terminal but uses a 90 amp fusible link between battery and alternator and rest of the engine. Get back with this and we can move on
 
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fen-isl

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Mar 31, 2011
Messages
74
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Welcome aboard, Sounds like you got yourself a winter project, Hope you got it for a real good price!! I second starting with the engine, to see if its salvageable. Definitely put some oil in those cylinders and see if she frees up before you put a starter in. If not you will just damage the starter or worse the flywheel. In my opinion if the engine is seized I would cut my loss and get a different boat. Oh and for the starter make sure it is a marine starter not a automotive. If you do replace the engine, you will need a marine engine also, you don't want to take an engine from a car or truck and install. They don't have the torque, and cant take the hi rpm's that boat engines can.. In other words it will live a very short life..

Good Luck
 

Bondo

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70,465
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Having a hard time posting a whole photobucket album. Anyone got any tips?

Ayuh,... Welcome Aboard,.... If it's a public album, just post the link to the beginin' photo,...

Ya gotta slow down abit,...
post yer motor, 'n drive questions in this thread ya got goin',...

All yer Hull, 'n fiberglass questions oughta go in a thread in the Drydock, aka; the Restoration, 'n Repair forum,...

Good luck, looks like yer gonna be Busy til spring,...
 

chaiyz

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Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Sorry about that Bondo. I wasn't expecting to start a restoration thread but maybe after I get past the motor could you move this to the restoration forum?

Thanks and I've already gotten alot of great information here.

My Engine Volvo Penta 4.3GS - SX series Serial #181710
Also serial# 4 365 A-PMDA 411 01 05816 386 80 89
Outdrive Prod# 386 type SXS ratio 1.66 prop 14.5
Serial # 4112004615

Anyone know exactly what I'm dealing with here? I did see that marine 4.3MD long block is relatively common and simple to replace. Known weaknesses? I'd like to know the HP rating of this specific motor. Valve covers say vortec and I'm assuming that it's right off the line in 1994.
 
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bajaunderground

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Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,401
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Chaiyz,

Welcome to iboats..the best place to be when you find yourself in the place you are!!!

Okay, as others have stated, start with the motor Boatinfo - boat brochures and manuals for boats and marine engines! has the OMC manual that has all the info you're gonna need. You motor (mistyped/quoted?) is either the 4.3GLPMDA (2bbl carbed) or the 4.3GSPMDA (4bbl carbed)? I suggest you verify the model before tackling any connections/etc. While I doubt there's any wiring differences between the 2 models, I'd double check for safety/expense sake!

As far as the structural part of your questions...yours appears to be constructed with a partial liner type cap. Meaning the bow area and the the rear engine/bench seat portion are all part of the cap, rather than part of the deck. Yours appears to have a deck that runs from just fore of consoles to just fore of bench seat. There's good and bad to that set-up...one of which you've already figured out, removing the motor is gonna suck (if necessary?)!

Report back after you 1) Find Manual in the link I provided 2) Identify motor, 3) figure why it's not turning over (hydrolocked, frozen pistons, whatever?)

This is a great place for the DIY'er...if you have the patience, mechanical aptitude and wallet, these guys can get you through anything that little boat throws at you!

Good Luck!

~Brett
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Is it possible the 4.3gspmda is the right number?
The 4.3gspdma isin't in the Volvo lineup??
3860764 I think that's the starter part#from Volvo $339.
This site sells them.$160
 

chaiyz

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Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Sorry to be posting this so late. I didn't realize my Sunday was starting so late. I was able to get the spark plugs out and all were dry, fresh antiseize on the threads. All were dry and cylinders were dry. I've removed the belts for all accys. put the throttle in neutral. Since the bolt is a 6 point 5/8th and the only 5/8' I have is 12 point I can't really put too much on it but it should be moving. I'm holding out a very tiny hope that after I pick up a set of impact sockets that I'll be able to get it free.
Since this isn't very hopeful I'm now looking locally for a 4.3PMDA motor. I'm a bit confused about this and the manual site bajaunderground When searching for a 4.3GS I wasn't able to find it. I could find the GL 4.3 manuals but maybe I just missed it. Anyway, I'm kinda looking for a longblock now. I'd like any suggestions for good reliable and well priced sources. Since I live so close to Jacksonville, I will probably check with west marine on Tuesday.

I also need to make sure that the outdrive is not seized causing this problem. Since room non-existant, I didn't unbolt outdrive. This is my first Volvo outdrive and it's much larger than I'd expect to see in this boat. Somewhat scary to be honest.

I need to know the first things I should be checking on the outdrive and how it is normally disengaged. While it's a bit overwhelming though, it's just an engine and outdrive and I rebuilt a constellation with my dad over the course of 5 years. I'm an engineer and also built motors back in the early 90's at a place called Wolfe's Competition Engines, in Baroda Michigan. I learned so much from Bruce Wolfe. We repowered a 53' powerplay with twin 502's that were stroked to 572. Now you can buy a 572 directly from the manufacturer but back then, it had to be built and boy was it fun.

Sorry for the prolonged trip down memory lane. Just trying to form a plan with so many variables.

On a funnier side. Today I creased the door in my Avalanche moving some branches. It a good starter to get me back into what I'm going to need to fix the hull.
I'll take some pictures and repost the hull.
 

Bondo

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Messages
70,465
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Ayuh,.... post a picture of yer drive,.... I'm Guessin' it's an SX,..??

Whichever it is, they're splined to the crankshaft of the motor, 'n neutral happens in the drive,...

Drop the oil out of it, 'n look for Metal,...

'n, btw,... Don't be horsin' the crankshaft bolt any harder than ya can with yer 12 point socket,...

You'll Strip the crankshaft threads, or snap the bolt Off,...

Pull the drive, then the motor if is still ain't able to turn over,...
 

chaiyz

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Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18



Here's a closeup of the crack.


Will definetly not strip out the Crankshaft bolt. That's why I wanted a 6pt. It is an SX outdrive, how do I make sure the drive is free?

Thanks for looking and I'm still having problems with photobucket. My pic's are in an album but if I share the link, it only shows one picture. Posting the images from the markup bracket img is the only way I'm able to post. I'll check my security but something is acting funny, I can't link my photobucket page to FB either.
 

Bondo

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Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Will definetly not strip out the Crankshaft bolt. That's why I wanted a 6pt. It is an SX outdrive, how do I make sure the drive is free?

Thanks for looking and I'm still having problems with photobucket. My pic's are in an album but if I share the link, it only shows one picture. Posting the images from the markup bracket img is the only way I'm able to post. I'll check my security but something is acting funny, I can't link my photobucket page to FB either.

Ayuh,... Start a thread in the Restoration forum 'bout the Hull issues,...

Don't dirty up yer Motor/ Drive thread with the Hull issues,...

ya Pull the drive Off, as I said above,...
 

jerryjerry05

Supreme Mariner
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
17,923
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Since the starter is off.
Get a big screwey or pry bar.
Where the starter mounts.You can get to the flywheel.
It should be easy to bump it a little.
Don't over do.Changing the flywheel is a bummer.
The dive is easy to drop.
Under the rear cover.
Undo the shift cable.
Then the trim rams
Then the 6 bolts holding it to the transom.
Then it should pull off.
 

chaiyz

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Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Just wanted to update that I've tried spinning at the flywheel and it was a no-go. Having a hard time finding a 4.3PDMA GS longblock. Anyone have any suggestions near central Florida? I can find GL engines for very good prices but the GS has more HP and was original to the boat and I'd like to keep it. I'm a motivated buyer and I'd like to spend no more than $2400.00 for the engine delivered.
 

Bondo

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Messages
70,465
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Just wanted to update that I've tried spinning at the flywheel and it was a no-go. Having a hard time finding a 4.3PDMA GS longblock. Anyone have any suggestions near central Florida? I can find GL engines for very good prices but the GS has more HP and was original to the boat and I'd like to keep it. I'm a motivated buyer and I'd like to spend no more than $2400.00 for the engine delivered.

Ayuh,.... Have ya pulled the Drive yet,..??

If not, ya still don't know whether ya need a motor, or drive,...

The difference 'tween the GL vs; GS is the carb, 'n intake,...
 

chaiyz

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Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Hey there. Finally an update. Sorry for the long wait but I'm in North Florida and the weather and holidays have kept me out of my garage.
So, I pulled the SX outdrive, the oil looks good, and it shifts into forward and reverse and the bellows looks clean, not dry and no cracks.
Making a stand was easy thanks to this forum and once I had the drive out I moved back to the motor.

It's definetly seized. I pulled all plugs, belts and removed the outdrive and it won't budge. I've borrowed a friends borescope and the front left cylinder shows major rust. All other cylinders were fine.
Doing a little research tells me that I may be able to just remove all of the marine accessories and swap longblocks. Now, before I start an argument, let me again explain that I worked in a marine machine shop and have rebuilt many marine engines. While I understand that people may think a marine engine is special, I know it's just a longblock. Maybe it has brass freeze plugs, maybe it has PC seals and maybe it has a cam with a "marine grind" but in essence, this 4.3 vortec and the ones I can find in longblock form are literally and mechanically similar. So, since I'm only into this project for pennies, I'm just going to pull the motor and swap for "used", yes I said it. Used truck motor. I'm not familiar with the 4.3 vortec but I've always known that it's just a 350 missing 2 cylinders and while there are different RMS's and vortec heads, these engines should be as easy, if not easier to refresh in a typical home garage.

Now is when I need to either spilt this post up or move it to a different forum as I have other questions that regard the hull and electrics. Since I'm using this post to gather information at this time, I'm just trying to keep one post so all the info is in one place.

Basically there are only 2 other problems with this boat. The hull is dry but it has taken on water several times because of a 3" horizontal gash across a strake on the bottom of the hull on the passenger side. Apparently, some other owner chose to use bondo and just gobbed it on which neither fixed, or sealed the crack.
Another problem is the deck. It feels solid except over the drivers seat there it's comming up from the stringer. Since this boat has a cap and a liner that I've never worked with before and since it was cheap and I'm not Friscoboater, I'm not planning to pull the cap, replace stringers or remove the deck. That being said, I know I'll need to cut access on the passenger side to fix the cracked strake and I'm assuming I'll cut a similar panel from the drivers side to figure out how to reattach the deck to the stringer, if it's in decent shape. Many questions going off as I consider removing any decking as I know this project will never see water again if I just start pulling everything now.
I just spoke to a salvage yard and he says he has about 30 vortec 4.3 that have been pulled, filled to the lifters with oil and stored. He sells the long blocks for $350 and will exchange if I get one with low compression or low oil pressure. Seems like a no brainer and this has shifted this build into a budget, get it fixed and running project.
While I have not purchased a starter yet, I did buy a marine battery and a new positive battery cable and I'm still trying to figure out how the removable bulkheads near the engine were originally assembled. Anyone with a GW invader Es180 or similar could really help me out here with some pictures of their engine compartment, and the trim pump and how it's mounted. My trim pump is currently mounted to a piece of marine plywood with carpet and it appears that it's part of a large puzzle that goes in next to the engine. I have several of these pieces with stainless elbows to screw into each other, just don't know what it's supposed to look like.

So, now you know where I am and what my plan is, I need some help with a few questions.

1. Can anyone show me pictures of an original invader boat rear deck, engine compartment and trim motor mounting?
2. From the looks of it, I should be able to get this motor out without removing the engine liner, anyone have any tips for this specific boat?
3. What method for fixing the cracked strake? I was assuming I'd cut a hole in the deck and sand away till I hit good glass and then add new glass/matte and reinforce. Then the same from the bottom of the hull. I'm also not sure about poly or epoxy at this point. I'll also be trying to rematch the gelcoat and respraying about 18" x 24" on the bottom where the hull became very friendly with some bondo.
BTW, tools I have on hand for fiberglass repair: Good 2 stage compressor, Air DA sander, air orbital, electric orbital, electric belt sander.


Thanks for looking.

Chaiyz
 

Bondo

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Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,465
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

Hey there. Finally an update. Sorry for the long wait but I'm in North Florida and the weather and holidays have kept me out of my garage.
So, I pulled the SX outdrive, the oil looks good, and it shifts into forward and reverse and the bellows looks clean, not dry and no cracks.
Making a stand was easy thanks to this forum and once I had the drive out I moved back to the motor.

It's definetly seized. I pulled all plugs, belts and removed the outdrive and it won't budge. I've borrowed a friends borescope and the front left cylinder shows major rust. All other cylinders were fine.
Doing a little research tells me that I may be able to just remove all of the marine accessories and swap longblocks. Now, before I start an argument, let me again explain that I worked in a marine machine shop and have rebuilt many marine engines. While I understand that people may think a marine engine is special, I know it's just a longblock. Maybe it has brass freeze plugs, maybe it has PC seals and maybe it has a cam with a "marine grind" but in essence, this 4.3 vortec and the ones I can find in longblock form are literally and mechanically similar. So, since I'm only into this project for pennies, I'm just going to pull the motor and swap for "used", yes I said it. Used truck motor. I'm not familiar with the 4.3 vortec but I've always known that it's just a 350 missing 2 cylinders and while there are different RMS's and vortec heads, these engines should be as easy, if not easier to refresh in a typical home garage.

Now is when I need to either spilt this post up or move it to a different forum as I have other questions that regard the hull and electrics. Since I'm using this post to gather information at this time, I'm just trying to keep one post so all the info is in one place.

Basically there are only 2 other problems with this boat. The hull is dry but it has taken on water several times because of a 3" horizontal gash across a strake on the bottom of the hull on the passenger side. Apparently, some other owner chose to use bondo and just gobbed it on which neither fixed, or sealed the crack.
Another problem is the deck. It feels solid except over the drivers seat there it's comming up from the stringer. Since this boat has a cap and a liner that I've never worked with before and since it was cheap and I'm not Friscoboater, I'm not planning to pull the cap, replace stringers or remove the deck. That being said, I know I'll need to cut access on the passenger side to fix the cracked strake and I'm assuming I'll cut a similar panel from the drivers side to figure out how to reattach the deck to the stringer, if it's in decent shape. Many questions going off as I consider removing any decking as I know this project will never see water again if I just start pulling everything now.
I just spoke to a salvage yard and he says he has about 30 vortec 4.3 that have been pulled, filled to the lifters with oil and stored. He sells the long blocks for $350 and will exchange if I get one with low compression or low oil pressure. Seems like a no brainer and this has shifted this build into a budget, get it fixed and running project.
While I have not purchased a starter yet, I did buy a marine battery and a new positive battery cable and I'm still trying to figure out how the removable bulkheads near the engine were originally assembled. Anyone with a GW invader Es180 or similar could really help me out here with some pictures of their engine compartment, and the trim pump and how it's mounted. My trim pump is currently mounted to a piece of marine plywood with carpet and it appears that it's part of a large puzzle that goes in next to the engine. I have several of these pieces with stainless elbows to screw into each other, just don't know what it's supposed to look like.

So, now you know where I am and what my plan is, I need some help with a few questions.

1. Can anyone show me pictures of an original invader boat rear deck, engine compartment and trim motor mounting?
2. From the looks of it, I should be able to get this motor out without removing the engine liner, anyone have any tips for this specific boat?
3. What method for fixing the cracked strake? I was assuming I'd cut a hole in the deck and sand away till I hit good glass and then add new glass/matte and reinforce. Then the same from the bottom of the hull. I'm also not sure about poly or epoxy at this point. I'll also be trying to rematch the gelcoat and respraying about 18" x 24" on the bottom where the hull became very friendly with some bondo.
BTW, tools I have on hand for fiberglass repair: Good 2 stage compressor, Air DA sander, air orbital, electric orbital, electric belt sander.


Thanks for looking.

Chaiyz

Ayuh,.... As for yer replacement Motor,... Be sure to match the Vintage of the long blocks,...

The 4.3l went through many changes over the years, 'n adaptin' 'em is usually possible,...
Startin' with the Right vintage will make yer swap much Easier,...

'n,... Ya, yer hull questions should be in their own thread, down in the Drydock, or restoration forum,...
You'll get better answers, much quicker in there,...
 

wrench 3

Commander
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
2,108
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

If your going with an automotive block, just remember that the marine engines tended to update later than the automotive.
 

chaiyz

Cadet
Joined
Nov 7, 2013
Messages
8
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

The boat is a '94 but has the holley 4bbl setup. It's the PDMA engine but I can find no cross-reference to know if that is in turn a chevy L35 core. When I yank the engine, I'll have access to the block id under the timing cover and go from there.
The only other thing I'm worried about is the cam. Don't know how much dancing room there is.

Depending on which models will work will determine where I go. If it's a common L35 and my distributor setup works, I'll be very happy. Apparently these little roller motors are everywhere and cheap... More $$ for interior.

Anyone have a link to a good reference to this ignition system? This is where this little 4.3 /volvo setup eludes me. Why isn't it HEI? I'd have thought that a carb'd engine setup based on a chevy would have been HEI. I like simple.
 
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wrench 3

Commander
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
2,108
Re: No starter, no battery, no positive terminal. 4.3GS PDMA 1994 Invader Bravo ES18

I'd definitely go with the marine cam. There not that hard to change. You'll probably be changing the timing cover any way. The automotive vortec will have a hole in the cover for the crank sensor.
Do you have a picture of your distributor? They usually run the smaller delco HEI distributor but with a different module.
 
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