EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

[ijsaul]

Aloha,

I'm the proud owner of my first boat, a 1997 Regal 2100 LSR, Volvo 5.7L GL PLKR with the SX-C Out-drive (I'm relatively sure this is correct, out drive has been painted, no tag left).

It's a great boat, ran a compression check before purchase, all numbers were in the 160+ range, and the 2 Barrel Carb has a fresh rebuild. However, I'm not satisfied with carburated performance in general. The boat is regularly somewhat hard to start (2-3 attempts before she stays on), and also has a tendency to cut off while idling, or when slowing to idle from a hard run. Also standard power drop when cornering hard.

I just replaced and properly gapped the plugs (NGK - BR6FS), and I've been over most of the other standard maintenance items.

I'm sure that with some time/energy/money, I could get the current carb running much better, however, I'm an EFI tuner type, and I'm much more interested in the functionality and ease of use of converting over.

After doing some homework, I tracked down Affordable Fuel Injection, and from the posts I've read they do a very good job, and have a good reputation for customer service.

My current decisions are whether to do merely the TBI setup ($1,700), a MPI install ($2,400), or a TPI system ($2,625). I've seen a few posts where people installed the TBI, and later said they wished they had gone with MPI/TPI.

My engine also unfortunately has 12 intake manifold bolts, so I'm under the impression that is indicative of a NON-Vortec head setup. I understand that converting this over could easily net more than a few extra HP, the question being both how much HP, and how much additional cost would this add? Are there any great manufacturers out there who can sell me an easy and complete package, without having to source a ton of parts individually?

I'm personally a gear head, and I'm more than familiar with the loss of money spent on fun projects, so while there is no firm budget for this part of my boat build, I'd like to see everything done correctly the first time, but without going exceedingly overboard for only a small net increase.

Any guidance/input? Thanks! -Ian

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Probably you won't get any responses on here because folks are scarred to death of lawyers. USCG certification and all.




I just finished putting a '92 TBI setup on my rebuilt 305. It works great.

I used my own setup. I bought a derelict '92 chev pickup with a 305, so I had all the hardware (They are really cheap btw). I used a Holley marine electric fuel pump for TBI, works fine. It was the most expensive piece. I used A1 fuel line to meet the fire requirement for fuel line. You can buy adapters for the fuel line to tbi connections at any auto parts store. I used the HEI distributor too. Fits fine. From what I understand the dist and tbi are the same part numbers as the marine equivalents, but I haven't checked. Both units are superior in quality and construction to my J-1234-marine-whatever old crap. Depending on the year of your engine (If it's old like mine) you have to round out a couple mounting holes in the middle of the intake manifold...no biggie it's Aluminum. Oh yeah, I had closed cooling so the AL manifold was no problem. Some have ceramic coated the al manifold for raw water; I think it's kinda dicey myself.

I tuned the ecm with tunerpro rt. Originally I had a wideband 02 installed on the #2 cylinder, plumbed just after the head exhaust exits the head. It's the only dry spot unless you buy/make a spacer for between your riser and exhaust manifold. Now I have a standard 02 there and it works fine so far. I run closed loop idle and it's great.

Others have done open loop lean burn at low power settings and have achieved significant fuel savings, while preserving high end operation; This is the magic of EFI of course.


I adjusted the spark map to have no vacuum advance, just a standard marine ignition advance curve. Tops out at 31 deg total advance, base is 8. There was a bunch of AE timing to get rid of. It was funny though, because after I checked the sum of all the ignition advances at high power (MAP)levels, guess where the timing was: +-1 deg of my marine timing curve. Anyway, it points to there being efficiency gains at lower power settings with a higher advance, but I'll leave that for another day.


If I did it again, I'd use any ecm except the '92; it was an oddball 1 year deal ('161). Get the '727 if you go tbi. It's well hacked.

If you go mpi, try to find a 1227730, or it's underhood (waterproof!) counterpart (1227727) from cars in the late 80's early 90's. Again, well hacked. Try to find a V8 version so the knock sensor matches up. If you want, you can also go DIS which would be great on a boat I'm sure. Others have megasquirted with success.

Would I go MPI? You do get a bit more power I'm sure. The vortec heads are supposed to be good for 30hp. That with the mpi intake would be a pretty good combo I'd think. I wasn't looking for power, so I didn't bother. I wanted reliability, available parts etc.

With the tbi you can also get a good carb intake and an adapter and make power, so I've heard.

All in I was about $700 for the efi. Watch out for 2D (No map sensor, just RPM!). You can theoretically control and engine this way, because load follows rpm due to the prop, but it's really sloppy; doesn't account for a change in props, altitude etc. That's why I couldn't look at most of these 'approved systems'.

Chay

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Thanks for the notification, I was starting to wonder why there hadn't been any response. For legalities sake, let's assume this is a 'hypothetical' situation for all future posts.

I've considered going the pick and choose method, but I figure for the amount of time I'll end up spending, it will cost me more than a complete kit would. Awesome that you went that route though!

I see that your HEI is ECU controlled. I found the Holley Avenger EFI Stealth Ram setup, which looks similar to the AFI kit from my original post, except for the lack of a few marine specific parts (fuel pump, O2 riser adapter) and most importantly the ECU controlled distributor. I've looked for a marine MSD setup (I'm interested in their rev-limiting function, although I'm sure that can be set in the ECU), but I can't seem to locate one that supports ECU control in the marine line. The manifolds which aren't cast iron do have a few coating options from what I understand, otherwise I've been considering a closed cooling system.

I'm exceedingly interested in the ability to fine tune the fuel maps in the future. I have an AEM wideband gauge next to me for another project which I'd like to be able to work with on the boat. In regards to the Tunerpro software, what cabling is necessary to hookup the laptop to the ECU (I'm sure this is merely dependent on year/model of the ECU, but some guidance would be appreciated). I'm leaning toward the waterproof 1227727 ECU, which is offered as part of the kit from AFI. The system also comes with MAP, so I should have more than enough info at my fingers to dial in the tune in the future.

Currently I'm leaning away from a head swap and TPI install. After sleeping on it for a night, I'd rather just TPI/MPI for this year, and then perhaps revisit Vortec with a new intake manifold in the future. It will also give me a good bit more information to publish about the stages of this build and tune.

When you mention "That's why I couldn't look at most of these 'approved systems'.", were you referring to the lack of a MAP sensor? All of the ones I've found seem to include it currently.

Any pics? It sounds like a great and very similar build.

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

If I were to create this package semi-independently through new sources, I've come up with the following parts listing (I've also written Holley directly to see if they currently offer the Stealth Ram setups in a marine package, and merely don't have them posted online, so far no answer):

1. Holley 550-821 Avenger EFI Stealth Ram Fuel Injection System - This is the slightly tuneable Holley Avenger system with the Stealth Ram intake. This includes injectors, a non-marine fuel pump, the intake, ECU, and sensors. - $2,999

2. Sierra International 18-7330 Marine Electric Fuel Pump - In keeping with USCG Regulations, a Sierra MPI Designed fuel pump for the 350/454/502 engines. - $165

3. Holley 12-814 Mechanical Fuel Pump Mounting Pad Cover - Self explanatory. - $13.30

4. Marine Grade EFI Compatible Distributor - Suggestions?

5. Marine Grade Fuel Line - Suggestions?

6. Marine EFI Fuel Filter - Suggestions?

7. 02 Riser Adapter - Suggestions?

Anything missing?

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

One at a time:


____________________
"That's why I couldn't look at most of these 'approved systems'.", were you referring to the lack of a MAP sensor?

Right on. No map = no tune!

________________

This one you posted does have a controlled advance dist: It's a standard AUTO HEI from the look of it.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Chevrolet_Marine_TBI_System-29-44.html

Again, no spark control = no tune!

Someone will chime in, but I think if you look one of the Mercruiser systems is just a HEI dist connected to their box. HEI's are easy to interface, so you don't need an original GM ECM...they take advantage of this. Thunderbolt iv, Maybe T v? What I'm trying to say is that I feel if you do some research you will find the AUTO HEI is an approved dist, just without the stamp.

______________________________

With the TBI, you can get a socket booster and run an ostrichII eeprom simulator (moates.net), or fine tune by burning eprom chips (sucks), or get a socket (G1 adapter?) and run a AT29C256 eeprom (Digikey) which you need a programmer to burn. For the minor adjustments I used the 29c256.


If you're using a mpi (7730) the process is simplified, just hook in a slightly different adapter and the ostrich II. The nice part of the ostrich II is that tunerpro rt recognizes it, and will download direct, even while running!

The RT of tunerpro RT stands for Real time. You need a 2 transistor aldl cable (google it). You need a serial port/usb converter ($30) to connect. The ostrich takes a usb port.

When I tune I have dual serials (ECM, WideO2 (Zeitronix with logging)) and a usb (OstrichII) going.


_________________________________


I made up my own block off plate from some 1/4" AL. Made a gaskey. Easy-peasy.


____________________________________

That Volvo EFI systems use a low and high pressure fuel pump which bolt onto a filter assembly with NON pipe thread-sized threads. Not only do you need 2 pumps, you will have a ***** of a time finding barbed adapters to fuel line. The pic you posted looks exactly like one of these. Be careful before you blow your money!

________________________________________________

On that last system; not sure where the spark arrestor bolts to (required on a boat). Nice manifold though!

On the GM TBI I bought a new sierra 4 barrel one...I sealed the original hole in the middle and drilled a new one off center to match the TBI hold down bolt. I think it was $75 or so.

____________________________________________

USCG A1 fuel line will run anywhere you need it to go, including between the fuel pump and the TBI. The TBI intake feed side is 3/8 and the return is 5/16 if memory serves.



Chay

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Got it, just making sure, since all of the systems I've seen are MAP designs.

That's one of the solid reasons I'm leaning toward the AFI kit, since it includes the distributor as part of the package. I'll do some research and find a standard automotive one from MSD or whatnot that is ECU compatible.

So the 1227730/1227727 ECUs can be tuned directly via Ostrich 2.0, and a 12 or 16 Pin ALDL Cable from ALDLCable.com, in conjunction with the Tunerpro software?

My AEM WB02 has RS232 output, so I should be able to easily capture that as well.

In order to avoid all that hassle with Volvo pumps, can you recommend a good marine grade standard NPT compliant pump system? You mentioned a Holley pump in your build, however, I couldn't find any fit for marine use with high enough PSI for MPI. I'm also thinking dual stage pumps, a system designed in the order of fuel tank -> fuel water separator -> low pressure pump -> fuel accumulator -> high pressure pump -> fuel filter -> MPI -> return line to fuel accumulator.

K&N seem to make conical flame arrestors which would fit directly around the front of the TPI throttlebody.

Thanks!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

For most bang for the buck, I would go Vortec first before messing with a EFI.

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

I don't disagree, however, the current carb is killing my enjoyment of the boat, and I think I've got an EFI solution just about worked out.

Is there a vendor with ready to bolt on Vortec heads for the non-vortec crowd? Otherwise I will leave all of that for later, and just make sure I can continue to enjoy her, even if she isn't at maximum output.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Curious, what's wrong with the distributor you already have on your engine?

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

I don't believe that my current unit is capable of accepting timing corrections from an ECU, and therefor would be merely be relying on it's own default timing curve, which would be far from optimal for performance.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

The ostrich can plug into either unit.

The way it does so is a bit different.

the 7727 required a g2 adapter and a 'socket booster'

Adapter:

http://www.moates.net/g2-memory-adapter-060-leg-spacing-p-36.html?cPath=64

Booster:

http://www.moates.net/socket-booster-10-p-171.html


the 7730 requires an adapter...the G1. The ostrich plugs into it directly:

Adapter:

http://www.moates.net/g1-memory-adapter-tpi-etc-p-32.html?cPath=64




You can also use someting like this if you want it simpler (I want to tuern multiple ecms so I wanted all the tools...for a single app this is a good idea; it's up to you):

http://www.dynamicefi.com/


The ALDL premade cables are made to plug into factory ALDL connectors. Make sure the aftermarket efi kit you get has one, otherwise, make your own, or order a custom cable. They are easy to make, the parts are on digikey. You need a couple of transistors, a small prototype board, and a 9pin female 9 pin d connector and shell.

You could just ask ALDL cable to give you the +12, Ground and Data connections as wires rather than tied into a socket. That's what I have. I tied the +12 to the ignition, so whenever the ignition is on I have a data connection live to the ecm. It draws mA so it's not an issue for loading.


I can't recommend a good pump for more than 15psi. I never researched it. The dual pump/accumulator system is good, just a bit complex for me. I like to keep it simple if I can.

This page has some good info:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~davida1/boat.htm

Chay

 

[bruceb58]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

I don't believe that my current unit is capable of accepting timing corrections from an ECU, and therefor would be merely be relying on it's own default timing curve, which would be far from optimal for performance.

And what timing corrections do you think an ECU are going to give it? You plan on programming the ECU to respond to a knock sensor? What happens if you progam it wrong and you end up having detonation which ruins your engine?

Funny, I have a carb and my boat starts almost instantly and idles perfectly. I would never even think of adding EFI to my boat. There is something to be said for having something simple and reliable.

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Are you familiar with how EFI functions? Depending on a number of factors (ambient temperature, coolant temp, knock, throttle position, etc) the specific timing for a point on the RPM scale may need to be adjusted. Better throttle response, increased power, and fuel efficiency can all be had by timing corrections being handled in a more intelligent system than RPM=Timing. What happens if you pour power steering fluid into your crankcase? Or fail to replace the gaskets when working on risers? Or re-jet your carburetor incorrectly?

This thread should obviously have shown a knowledge of how these systems function in general, and I've only been looking for information specific to marine components and GMC tuning options. I've owned and worked on 3rd Generation RX-7s (twin turbo rotary), and currently own a twin turbo all wheel drive Dodge Stealth, with upgraded turbos and race heads. I'm not concerned about "ruining my engine" while tuning anything unboosted, since the margin for error at 20+PSI is much smaller than ambient pressure.

I don't think it's "funny" at all that you have a working carb. I'm quite sure, as I originally stated, that my current system could be improved to correct MOST of the issues I'm experiencing, however, a carb will not provide the ease of operation, full range throttle response, and overall performance (not peak performance, since they are nearly equal in that regard), that I'm seeking.

What do you think the major differences were between the 5.7GL in my boat, making 215HP, and the 5.7GSi of the same year, making 280HP?

A link to my automotive projects:

 

[bruceb58]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

What do you think the major differences were between the 5.7GL in my boat, making 215HP, and the 5.7GSi of the same year, making 280HP?

Is this between the 2 barrel carb version and the MPI version? What is the difference between the 4 barrel version and the MPI version and at what RPM are they rated. More important than HP would be the torque differences and at what RPM they deliver their torque, especially at lower RPMs.

Need to be a little careful how Volvo specs the HP. Typically the the FI models have HP rating above 5K RPM where the GL models are rated at max 4600 RPM.

My brother and I have very similar boats, although mine is a bit lighter, and we both have 7.4L Volvo duo-prop. He has fuel injection and I have the carb. I swing a higher pitch prop to make up for the weight difference. There is very little difference between the performance of our 2 boats. We drive together and we accelerate exactly the same with mine being a little faster due to the weight difference.

If you really want to improve the drivability of your boat, put on a duo-prop lower unit. My boat literally pops up on plane in seconds with half throttle.

I understand your knowledge base now.

Edit: Looks like the 280HP version is rated for 400 more RPM. There is another FI model that is rated at 250HP at the lower carbed RPM. I also have an LK model year like you and for the 7.4L engine, there is no difference in HP between the carb and FI versions.

Edit2: Looks like for the 5.7L there is a carbed version that is also 250HP. Doesn't say the number of barrels. Apparently they put 4 barrel carbs and fuel injection on the duo props only. So if you compare the carbed version and FI version of the same year 5.7L engines with same RPM ratings, they have the same HP. I found my info here:http://www.volvopenta.com/VOLVOPENT..._ENGINES/Pages/out_of_production_engines.aspx

 

[wellcraft19]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Fuel injection can make wonders, but since they need a "brain" and some serious wiring, there is a component of unreliability introduced over good old carbs. Boats collect moisture, especially during the cold season, and corrosion (albeit tiny tiny) can always create havoc on any electrical system in a boat.

That said, please keep posting updates and (when there) photos of your progress. That's how we all learn!

BTW, back in 1993 I looked at the Mitsu 3000/Dodge Stealth, but settled for the Nissan 300 ZX Twin Turbo. Had it for 10 years and still to this day regret getting rid of it. Great engine, amazing driving position, and still a very classy looking car.

 

[ijsaul]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

Yes, peak HP is quite often the same between a correctly setup large (4 barrel) carb and TBI. However, there should be much more usable power under the peak, which is where FI really shines, along with fuel consumption & throttle response. I have considered a duo-prop setup, it seems very speed and functionality laden, however I'll wait until I have some catastrophic incident with my current SX setup before investigating that more fully. I'm currently just trying to make the engine itself as smooth and powerful as possible, and since the technology is there and available, I'll stick with what I'm knowledgeable and best at. Not to mention a tuned port intake with MPI just seems like a lot of sexi under the engine cover. I'm extremely excited to see how this setup turns out.

The HP @ RPM differences are due to the 2 barrel being inadequately jetted to keep up with anything over the 4600 RPM threshold (not recommended anyways, with margin of error). It's one way that Volvo/Penta and the other manufacturers could offer the boat in various price ranges, while not increasing their manufacturing costs much. The models available in 1997 were, to my knowledge, GL = 2 Barrel Carb (215-235HP), GS 4 Barrel Carb (250-280HP), GSi TBI (250-280HP, Throttle Body Injected, merely 2 or 4 fuel injectors in a carb like setup). There is also a Gi variant, which was released from 1993-1997, rated @ 270HP. From looking into Vortec release dates, I'd assume that the Gi, along with my engine, are basically an L05 equivalent, and not an LT-1, and certainly not the Vortec equipped L31. If so, I should be able to make a maximum of the same 270HP, or a net increase of 55 without a Vortec conversion. Even if the Gi does include other mechanical improvements regarding flow, then 250HP of the lowest rated GSi's should be well within my grasp, so an increase of 35HP.

All of the above HP numbers are also pulled from the same Volvo Penta site referenced above, with GMC engine models pulled from Wiki for corresponding years.

Added electronics/complexity can always bite you in the ***. I typically simplify my vehicles as much as possible to not only make working on them easier, but to limit the number of minor fault points which could result in a major failure. However, in this instance, some added complexity, which I will be intimately familiar with post install, won't increase the failure points drastically, and will increase the power and functionality, along with it being a fun project. I'm planning to place the order today through AFI.

I too started out looking @ the 300ZXs back when they were far outside of my price range (18-19), and eventually wound up with a 240SX as my first RWD car (3rd overall). I've always been a huge fan of forced induction, and that coupled with the AWD systems Mitsubishi equips the Stealth/3000GT (commonly referred to by it's model code, 3S), really creates a powerful package for street/strip application. I don't think I will ever part with mine, had her since December of 2003.

Pics and details will be forthcoming, after a 2-3 week lead time for kit production from AFI.

If any of the above numbers or assumptions on models is incorrect, please anyone feel free to chime in. Decoding the engines/induction/options is still somewhat cryptic to me.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

I was wondering how ling it would be until I bumper into a dsm guy!

I've seena bunch of stuff on that while researching my turbo project, a 3.4 with an MHI EVO VIII 16G turbo on it. Still working on it! If only I could get done on the boats for a while ( I have 3 now somehow)!!!


I think you will be happy with the conversion. It has made my port engine my 'go to' for slow cruising and trolling (28.5 Bayliner) etc. No plug fouling and all the other old school carb stuff that can happen.

30hp seams resonable with a move to essentially a 4 barrel manifold/throttle body. I think it will make some difference top end. It'll be interesting to see. I know my throttle response in night and day more crisp and instant than with the carb for sure.

Chay

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: EFI Conversion On 1997 57GL - TBI/MPI/TPI With Or Without Vortec Head Upgrade

You do understand that if you would invest the sam money into heads valve train and a properly jetted carb that 350 would turn about 375 hp and run like a whole differnt animal.....EFI in a boat does not improve to much....other than perfect key turn starts. I am not being negative here at all. I have been tinkering with a GM Delphi systems for a few yrs now..In the end you still run rich and hp gains are miminal

 

[tyler9953]

Read through this thread as I am considering converting my 1994 Century 5.7 260hp 2bbl carb to tbi. I am thinking simple and I'm not wanting to spend a fortune. My boat runs good enough, but starts and idle are not always the greatest. I'm wanting the perfect starts and idles. I am sure other men can relate, but my wife can't operate the boat unless it's starting and idling good and that can be a pain for multiple reasons. I have several pre vortec parts from a 1990 chevy for the tbi conversion but I'll need to pickup a few parts. I found this on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Throttle-Bo...Parts_Accessories&hash=item4182cec8e6&vxp=mtr

and they'll take out the parts I already have and reduce the price of the kit. I thought I'd get a marine tbi distributor instead of the one offered in the kit. The other concern I have is mounting the ecu, map, etc. How and where is what I'm wondering. Would I need to buy a tuning program to hook to my laptop? I'm not wanting to get real deep here, just better start, idle, and maybe fuel economy.

 

[bruceb58]

That kit is not marine.

You should also be starting your own thread on this subject.