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Crusader 270 Stalling Out

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  • Crusader 270 Stalling Out

    I have a 1987 Carver Mariner 3297. Twin GM 350ci/5.7l (Crusader 270's) . Port side engine will stall out after starting and running fine for hours. This has happened to me times now. The last time was this past Wednesday. Boat started fine, and runs great. Crossed Lake Erie (about a two hour run). When I got to Put-In-Bay and received docking instructions from the dockmaster, I was making a port-side turn into the marina, and the port side engine sputters out and quits. The other times this happened, when attempting to restart, it will usually not restart right away. I have to crank the engine for a few seconds (4-5 secons), thens wait about 30 seconds or more, the it will fire up. However, this last time it happened, it did start right back up. When is does start back up after this happens, it starts kinda wierd, like sputters into a start (hard to describe). On two ocassions, just after the port side died, the startboard also died, The starboard side always strarts right back up with no problem. My engines share a starting battery (1,2,all selectable) but have independant fuel tanks. Gas has been cycled since this first happened (2x100 gallon tanks) so I lean to ruling out bad fuel. I get fuel at my boat club mostly, and no body else has any problems with it. On the other occasions only the port side stalls out.

    The port engine just had a head gasket replaced, and carb replaced. However, this problem first happened before the carb was replaced and still happens with the new carb. As I said, the boat runs fine, great acutally.. with the exception of this stalling issue.

    Another note.. all but one time when this happened, I was making a port-side turn but in calm water.

    After replacing the head gasket, the engine was not running right, and the air/fuel pins had to be pulled out in order to get the engine to run good, this is why I replaced the carb (rebuilt Rochester Quadrajet). When I bought the new carb, guy said it was bench tested and calibrated, so I just had to install and go (again, the problem happened before the new carb was installed)

    When it stalls, I looked at the gauges, and everything looks fine, Oil Pressure, temp, Volts all look good.

    Before replacing the carb, I tested the fuel pump, and was getting good pressure (cant remember if it was 5.5psi or 6.5 but I recall it was at whatever the book called for),

    I also tested the coil, have new plugs (not wires, just plugs), new points & condensor, cap, rotor, fuel filter and Group 31 AGM Marine Deep Cycle Battery. Oil looks good, clean, no water. No signs of any think leaking outside the eingine. Also checked for parasite leak, and all voltage seems to be good.

    Before the head gasket blew, I had a little fuel leak at the fuel inlet at the carb. It was impossible to remove the fuel line, so I had to "cut" the fuel line. I replaced it with the Crusader recommended "Flex" fuel line, and removed the filter at the carb (also as recommended by Crusader). This is the only thing that I keep going back to as a possible source of the problem. Thinking maybe with the carb fuel filter removed, maybe the normal PSI from the fuel pump is too much, and perhaps flooding the carb. Seems a far stretch since that is what the manufacturer suggests to do, but thats the only other thing that has recently changed.

    My other though was maybe the choke pull-off, maybe not opening enough enough and when I RPM back to idle from 3200rpm maybe its choking .. not really sure which is why I'm asking for opinons, suggestions and advice.

    I have not tried swapping coils yet, just dont think thats the problem.

    Thanks for any suggestions!

  • #2
    The other times this happened, when attempting to restart, it will usually not restart right away. I have to crank the engine for a few seconds (4-5 seconds), then wait about 30 seconds or more, then it will fire up. However, this last time it happened, it did start right back up. When is does start back up after this happens, it starts kinda weird, like sputters into a start (hard to describe).
    My initial thought is fuel issue, and need some testing to verify but lean toward maybe to much. My reason for to much is from it not wanting to restart right away (flooding). Sputtering in most cases is from to much fuel.

    Have you tried giving it a bit more throttle to see if it would start faster?

    Think the issue is to find some things out you need another person to test while the boat is being driven. Need to look in the carb when it won't start to check for flooding. Fuel pressure is always good to recheck.
    94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
    95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
    07 SeaDoo GTX
    Raw Water Pump Maintenance
    Merc Adults Only

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks AllDodge.. Going to retest Fuel Pump tomorrow.. Today, had worse problem. Same stalling at idle, but left Kelley's Island (Lake Erie) for 42 Mile run home. This time, while underway at 3200, she started bogging down an sputtering a lot. At first, it was going back-and-forth, bogging, then recover in about two minute intervals.. finally I lowered rmp to about 2800 just to stabalize the port side.. it still sputter a bit, but not nearly as bad, and 2800 was enough to keep my up on plane to get home. Once at my home port, same issue when idling into marina, stalled at idle. I was able to get her docked up, so thats good, but now for the week of troubleshooting to start.. lol.

      One other note, at Kelley's Island, they only had 87 Octane gas, so not sure if that was contributing to the problem (although I had about 40 gallons of 89 to about 30 gallons of 87)

      I agree.. definately seems like a fuel problem. I think I going to put that carb inlet fuel filter back on the carb as well. Seems that I didnt start having this problem (even with the old carb) until I changed that fuel line and removed the carb filter.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is starting me to think about an issue another Carver owner has. Reason being is it sputters a bit less at lower rpm's. He is EFI but found another set of filters down close to the tank. We didn't know they were there until many hours of looking. The issue is these filters were catching all the crud that the tank had in it. To change the filter, you had to hang up side down for a good while.

        Glad the filters were there (Sort of), because they caught all the crap coming from the tank. In any case look around and see if there is another set of filters

        Your motors need nothing but 87 octane, they will burn higher stuff just fine, but all that does is empty your wallet sooner, it does not do anything better for the motor
        94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
        95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
        07 SeaDoo GTX
        Raw Water Pump Maintenance
        Merc Adults Only

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for that suggestion. My bilge is rather big and open, I can see the fuel lines clearly. I only have the canister fuel filter, which oddly enough was changed just before this problem started to occur.. I'm going to double check that filter, make sure its on right (not sure if it could be up-side-down or not) but just to be sure. The only other filter "was" at the carb, and that was removed with the retro-kit.

          Having said all that.. my problem seems to be getting worse. Now, I can duplicate the problem just sitting at the dock, running motor for about 20 minutes, then rev up to about 2K RPM or so, then drop to idle, and she will sputter out. I know it sounds like a fuel issue, but what about distributor.. could the advance-weights or distro be worn causing that? I guess that doesnt make sense if it was sputtering at 3200 even throttle. I'm just starting to look at things I dont fully understand because its a strange and frustrating problem..

          Oh.. heres something interesting though. Today I replaced the flex fuel line because I previously kinked it when I swapped out the carb and though maybe that might be the problem (it wasnt), but as I was checking to make sure there were no fuel leaks after changing the line, I heard that periodic "buzzing" sound (sounded just like a bee buzzing).. I found that it was coming from the fuel tank! I put my ear to it, and could hear it clearly every 2-4 seconds.. I thought it was indicating maybe a restricted fuel vent and I figured I was hearing air struggling to get it. however, I switched the fuel source to the starboard tank, which did not make that noise, but I still have the same stalling issue. Still dont know what that buzzing is, but I guess that a problem for another day.

          I made a list of things to start checking. Going to start with fuel pump pressure test, plug condition, spark tester, check points, maybe swap the distro from the starboard engine, and the fuel pump for that matter...

          Could there be anthing with the exhaust manifolds that would cause an issue? I have the boat for 4 seasons now, but no idea how old the exhaust manifolds are, or if they've every been replaced. (I'm in Michigan, so 4-5 month season, fresh water with sea-water cooling). I noticed today that after I started the engine, there was some dry-looking black soot floating on the water behind my boat.. never say that before, not sure what that would indicate.

          I'm also going to put a scope down the plug bores to look into the cylinders.

          Any other suggestions are appreciated.

          Comment


          • #6
            Don't know what the buzzing would be, something loose and just vibrating. The vent lines shouldn't have a valve or other such in it

            I would be looking close at the carb to see if its flooding
            94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
            95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
            07 SeaDoo GTX
            Raw Water Pump Maintenance
            Merc Adults Only

            Comment


            • #7
              Yesterday I pulled the plugs. The plugs on the side that had the head gasket breach cylinders 1,5 were dry sooty with some oil around the base threads. The other cylinder head all plugs looked normal, tan colored. I also noticed that when running this engine was outputting a residue out the exhaust onto the water.. and some noticable dry soot. Seems like a fuel problem for sure. I replaced all the plugs. Still can not get it to run right. I also re-tested the fuel pump and getting 6 psi, which I believe is good. althogh this is at idle, I cant check it underway at this time.

              This morning, I swapped the distributor from the starboard engine, and it ran considerable better, smoother, and NO residue discharge or soot.. it looked 100% better (exhaust). Although the engine ran much, much better, I still have the stalling problem. Here is the exact descriptoin;

              Run up to 160* temp. Rev motor up to about 2-25k and hold about 15-30 seconds. Drop the throttle instantly down all the way (almost slamming it down). The engine will drop RPM (of course), then stumble out to a stall. After the stall, it's diffult to start back up, it will take 15-30 revolutions to start, and when it does start it "stumbles" into running mode (not smoothly like when first start). Also, after starting back up, its difficult to keep idle.. with the throttle level at idle, it will stall out.

              I took flame arrestor off, the choke is fully open when warm. I cant see into the carb because the deck strut is directly above it, but I dont see any obvious signs of flooding, and cannot smell gas at all. Would seem that she is starving more than flooding. Also checked the overflow tube, it does not appear to have any gas in it.

              I guess I'm leaning towards a carb adjustment at this point.. not sure what else to check. I think the only things left for me to do is actually swap the fuel pump.. harder than it sounds because the intake is pretty well rusted on and I'm sure I will round that nut. Keeping this as a last resort expecially since I got 6psi off that pump.

              Comment


              • #8
                Should be able to use a mirror to see down the carb.

                The oil on the two plugs isn't good and with the rest of the plugs being Tan then you probably don't have a fuel issue. Swap some plug wires with the other motor
                94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
                95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
                07 SeaDoo GTX
                Raw Water Pump Maintenance
                Merc Adults Only

                Comment


                • #9
                  Something I forgot to mention.. before I swapped the distributor from the other engine, I was getting a residue discharged with the exhaust.. looked like gas, very thin film. Also at one point had floating soot on the water surface. After I swapped the distro that went away completely. I have a feeling I have two independent issues going on.

                  Today, I checked the carb taking video with my cell phone. There is no gas in there when it stalls out. I pulled the fuel filter and noticed that it was only half full of gas. Since I previously installed a new filter, I though maybe it was defective or possibly the wrong one, so I swapped the canister with the other engine. After several run-ups and stalls, I pulled the fuel filter to see if it was full, and it was practically empty.. there was about a inch of gas in the bottom and engine would not start at all. I pulled the lines from the fuel pump, and no gas came out of the pump-to-carb line.. it was empty. I pulled the pump off and ordered a new one, it will be here tomorrow, so I'll see what happens with that.

                  Unless you have any other ideas, I think I have literally swapped every piece of this engine out already, with the exception of the fuel pump that will be here tomorrow, this is my current list;

                  Installed rebuilt carb
                  Swapped distributor
                  installed new plugs
                  Swapped plug wires (not new, but from other engine that is running fine)
                  Swapped fuel filter
                  Changed fuel source (port to stb tank - tanks are separate)
                  Checked timing
                  Rechecked timing (reset several times, plus after swapping distro, reset to TDC, installed and re-timed)
                  Refueled (no other reports in the marina of gas problems, so ruling out bad gas)
                  Installed a 2nd new flex-fuel line (thought I kinked the first one, which I did, but apparently not the problem)
                  Checked fuel pump pressure from pump to carb at 6 psi at idle for about 15 seconds (not able to test under way at this point)
                  Swapped coil with other engine
                  Installed new points/condenser, cap, rotor

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think you found the problem, and its either the fuel pump or something is restricting the pump from being able to draw fuel thru
                    94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
                    95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
                    07 SeaDoo GTX
                    Raw Water Pump Maintenance
                    Merc Adults Only

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The new pump wont be here until tomorrow (because of holiday).. I'll post back with results when I get it installed tomorrow.. thanks!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Installed new pump today. Could not do water test cause i have to put stuff back together on other engine. It starts up good and seem to run okay.. what I've been doing is revving up to about 2500 rpm, the slamming throttle down to idle. When I do that, it will still stall out... However, if I reduce RPM to idle like I normally would (gradually over 3-4 seconds), it seems fine. So I'm wondering if dropping RPM instantly from 2500+ to 750 could cause it to stall normally ?? I dont know, I mean I NEVER do that underway, so I should not have that problem I'm guessing

                        My true test will be on the water either tomorrow of Friday weather depending.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ok.. I replaced the pump, still have issue with stalling.. I'm at a loss where to go from here..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Sorry for not getting back right away, all kinds of curd happening.

                            You replaced the pump but sure if your pressure is staying up when under load. Is the carb still out of fuel or something else?
                            Last edited by AllDodge; September 13th, 2017, 02:58 PM.
                            94 Formula 27PC Custom 509MPI MEFI3 , B3 XR
                            95 Rinker 232 w/ 7.4L Carb 0F425011 B1 0F486471
                            07 SeaDoo GTX
                            Raw Water Pump Maintenance
                            Merc Adults Only

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Sign up today
                              I have not been able to test under load. Two obsticals; #1) I dont have the pressure gauge rigged "between" the pump and carb.. I only tested from the pump (ran until fuel in carb ran out). #2) I dont have enough maneuver room in my marina to get boat out if the engine stalls.. I literally need both engine running as my aft-dock-neighbor's anchor is over my cockpit, and my bow pulpit is literally over the swim platform of the boat next to me as I pivot to the canal. So if I loose an engine, it can be bad news. Obviously I can get guys to help me, but thats why I havent done that yet.

                              A friend of mine suggested maybe the timing chain stretched and is slacking as the RPM's fall, so the other day, we pulled the timing cover off, only to have an "oh yeah" moment.. it's a RH rotating engine.

                              Again, to recap whats happening. Originally I had a problem with stalling all together after lowering to idle. Now at dock, she idles and sounds really good. The only anomaly right now is that if I let engine warm up, rev up to 2500 or so, then slam throttle back to idle, the RPMs will drop to idle and immediately stall. As I mentioned before, normally I would never drop RPM that quickly, so I dont know how likely it is that I would have a stalling problem based on that condition. However, I know this is an indication that something is not right.

                              I am going to put the engine back together today or tomorrow, and just get her back on the water and see what happens.. as Capt Ron says "If anything's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there!"

                              Comment

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