Frustrating electrical problem

paulywally

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
39
So working on my friends what we think 1977 190 hp 302 ford. It all started with a no start no crank, click of the key when you turned it. I replaced starter, starter solenoid, and battery cables and solenoid to starter cable with thick gauge welding cable. Now i did what I should have done in the first place and investigated with my multi meter. The positive cable from the boat and motor that attaches to the starter solenoid had continuity with ground when the key is on. I investigated to the front of the boat first which was a mistake. It only told me that the key is connecting the circuit causing the ground. It is coming from the motor. On the motor I have continuity to ground on both sides of the ignition coil, both sides of the choke, and both sides of that ignition resistor. I'm pretty stumped. We took apart the black connector on the top of the motor that serves all of this and soldered thinking that the only thing that could cause this is a melted connector internally. It didn't help. I'm pretty much positive it's an ignition problem, but I don't have much experience with points. I do have a dwell Meter. I just need some guidance from the great minds on this forum. Thanks a lot. Paul
 
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,906
First check the lanyard kill switch (if installed) has the plastic key in place and shifter in neutral

The you will need to do a web search on how points work in a ignition system as that will give you the basics plus pictures of how it works. Also don't bother with conductivity readings as they will just confuse the matter. Set the meter to volts and see if you have 9-12v with the key turned to run at the coil positive if not report back.
loss of spark should be proven with a spark tester (autoparts store sell them for $10). if you have power at + side of coil and no spark then suspect the points are not opening or the condenser is shorted. if neither of them is a problem report back.

Theres so many if's and but's and could be its just easier to work this problem one piece at a time
 

Grandad

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
1,504
Hi pauly. I don’t have any direct experience on your engine’s circuitry but I do have considerable experience troubleshooting electrical systems in general and have a good understanding of electrical theory. I agree with Glenn; for troubleshooting, it’s probably more expedient to follow the voltage, rather than use continuity checks that can be very confusing to inexperienced troubleshooters. I suggest that you start with an accurate shop diagram of your wiring system. As you test each point in a systematic way, record your observations on the diagram.

There are a few points to keep in mind when trouble-shooting:

A functional circuit has a complete path from positive to negative, otherwise current would not flow. So, when test measurements are made between points in a closed circuit, it follows that you are going to see some degree of continuity at every point to every other point in the circuit.
It makes sense that test metering devices by nature must not themselves change the electrical values of the circuits being tested. Voltmeters (and multimeters when set on voltage scales) have a very high internal resistance. They are constructed this way so that they do not divert a significant amount of current, since the meter’s internal circuit becomes part of the circuit being tested and could change the current flow, perverting the test results.

Meters, when reading current flow (amps), are typically connected in series with components, so they must have a very low resistance so as not to impede the current flow under test and pervert the test results. It’s very important that connecting ammeters be done carefully so that the test leads do not actually create a short circuit, blowing fuses or damaging the meter.

Meters most commonly test between only 2 points. It’s very important to use a consistent reference point when checking voltages. Don’t assume that the engine block has a perfect connection to the negative or that the negative cable has a perfect connection to the negative battery post. Use the negative post itself whenever possible as a reference point or make very certain that the point to which you are connected is cleanly connected to the post.

A failing connection point in an otherwise complete circuit may not be “open”, but have a relatively high resistance across the connection. The high resistance will impede current flow and cause equipment to be non-functional, but a simple voltage test may not reveal the problem. A circuit must be “loaded” by current flow for the high resistance of a failing connection to show a drop in voltage from one side to the other. This is often the case with corroded battery terminals that will not allow high currents to flow to start the engine. If tested with a voltmeter while not attempting to start the engine, a voltmeter may indicate full voltage is available. This is also why a completely discharged or failing battery may show near full voltage until a load is applied.

I hope this is some help - Grandad
 

Chief123

Seaman
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Messages
59
I could give you a few pointers, but 1st I need to clarify something. In the 1st part of your post u state in part " It all started with a no start no crank"
So are you saying it doesn't crank? If you can't crank it you won't have a spark. Well, u could if you turned distributor with ignition on.
So pls clarify if u meant" NO crank".
Goodluck
 

paulywally

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
39
I could give you a few pointers, but 1st I need to clarify something. In the 1st part of your post u state in part " It all started with a no start no crank" So are you saying it doesn't crank? If you can't crank it you won't have a spark. Well, u could if you turned distributor with ignition on. So pls clarify if u meant" NO crank". Goodluck
Sorry I should have clarified. It all started by not cranking when the key was turned. It would start when we jumped the starter solenoid with a piece of metal. So I replaced everything in the starting circuit. Now it doesn't have spark.
 

paulywally

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
39
First check the lanyard kill switch (if installed) has the plastic key in place and shifter in neutral The you will need to do a web search on how points work in a ignition system as that will give you the basics plus pictures of how it works. Also don't bother with conductivity readings as they will just confuse the matter. Set the meter to volts and see if you have 9-12v with the key turned to run at the coil positive if not report back. loss of spark should be proven with a spark tester (autoparts store sell them for $10). if you have power at + side of coil and no spark then suspect the points are not opening or the condenser is shorted. if neither of them is a problem report back. Theres so many if's and but's and could be its just easier to work this problem one piece at a time
Sorry I should have clarified I did test with a spark tester. I will take your and grandads tips and test for voltage. I will report back.
 

Chief123

Seaman
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Messages
59
Tks, so it does crank. Your key will have a Off, Run & Start positions. So, with a hot battery and key in Run position check your voltage to the Battery post on the coil--should have 12 volts. If you do and you still have no spark then you will need to TS the ignitions system further. Now if you do not have the 12V at coil then go to the key. Again, with key in run position you should have 12V for supply and 12 volts on the run post. If you do have power on the run post then you just need to trace that wire back to coil. Sometimes, the connectors on the wiring harness appear to be connected good but corrosion or a loose or broken wire can't be see. If after checking everything with out finding problem you could always just run a new wire back to the coil. You could also do a quick ck by taking a jumper from the starter to the coil and seeing if it will start. I have a jumper with a switch on it so I can kill the engine with ease t Note, I said you should have12 V at coil with key on--some systems did use a resistor and only had 6 volts. Just not sure of yours. Goodluck.
 

paulywally

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
39
I haven't logged on in a long time. Due to snowmobiling season up here. Got this figured out then the guy hit a log and cracked the mid section of the omc outdrive.

I was sitting in the boat pondering how I was going to burn it when I look down at my feet and see a rotor out of a distributor sitting there. I call up the owner and he says Ya I took the cap off to check the points again. I hung up somewhat angry and put it back in and it fired right up. Don't think I ever did figure out what was killing the battery before it got sent to boat heaven though.


Thanks for the help everyone!
 

dadtodc

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
117
I know you found the answer to your problem, but I would like to add something else to the thread for someone else that might be searching for no start no crank issues. I had this problem after a full day on the water with my family. We decided to hit cove and wet a few hooks while the wife grilled a couple burgers . we drifted and fished and had a good ole time. I decided we needed to crank up and move out of the shallows before the outdrive got stuck or to shallow. No crank no start. I always carry a volt meter because I own a boat. I messed around for about 2 hours. Battery was fine because it was brand new. We kept having a dead battery prior to this day so I took the new one out and put in another new one for the day . I tested everything I could, and nothing had power even though the batter was perfectly fine. It got dark and I got pissed. I was going to call my friend and ask him to bring boat out to tow us back because we were in a cove and no one had come b for hours. I grabbed the wires and in a fury shook them all. then the lights came on. I tried to crank but I got one click an the nothing again. shook and same thing. Then I disconnected the positive terminal. I noticed the exposed copper wiring was all corroded, but not white to the eye. It was rust colored which matched the copper wire. I cut the exposed wire off and cut back the sheathing. Put back on and wham it fired right up.

Sorry to make it such a story but I know someone is out there right not searching and has looked at every thread concerning electrical with every diagnosis that makes sense. Hopefully someone can look at his one and walk out and laugh like I did when I shook the wires. Thanks!
 
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