*ding*...You've got oil

[pantaloonz]

ok,

I had my friend come over and help me crack the damn drain plug screws which is the good and the bad news.

As soon as the bottom screw came out, straight water came out for about 15 seconds, slowly turning to oil, the oil was not surprising light brown but darker than I expected. However the water is a clear indication of the suspected issue. Also when we disconnected the upper unit from the pivot housing a bit more water came out from the gasket area

I would say roughly a few teaspons. The unit continued to drain a milky brown mixture till the end.

Here here is a shot of the upper unit releasing from the pivot housing,, the gasket is fried.


You can see the water in the bellows...

Next I took a couple shots of the upper bellows, the bellows with the alignment rod in it.. I didnt want to press on it too hard, the seals don't look too bad but I didnt poke around to much but I did wipe away the real of the bellow as the seam back there is questionable..



I soaked up the water after these pictures were taken but didnt yet wipe any more gunk, residue off. I did not take a picture of the pivot housing as it was raining and I don't want rain water or more moisture in there!

Finally I snapped some shots of the alignment rod and the face of the upper unit..


Gear oil reading was .. normal prior to removal... would that be possible if water got in there?
In the last picture I can see how rusty the joint is, and there is a lot of muddy goop in there, but the seal (I'm assuming into the gear box itself) is pristine, clean not a sign of any wear or extrusion..

I still don't understand why just a bunch of water came out at first release.. it's almost like the lower unit was full of water and starting to force it's way into the upper unit deterioriating the lubrication..but that doesnt explain why oil would come out of the pivot housing gasket..

I'm stumped....

I also do not see any o-rings ... The only seal/gasket I see is the primary gasket.

Time to do more reading and diagram anaylsis while I wait for you experts!!!.. good or bad.. I'm ready.. give it to me straight!

-Pantz

 

[bruceb58]

You need to post your pictures again as they don't show. Use Photobucket or Dropbox.

 

[bruceb58]

You need to pressure test the drive.

The gasket between the drive and the pivot housing does little more than keep water out of the pockets between the drive and the pivot housing and it never works well.

Even without pictures, your u-joint bellows id likely shot. What happens is water gets into the bellows and then corrodes the drive shaft going into the drive. Once you get corrosion there, the seal is ruined and oil then leaks into bellows and water gets into the drive. Actually, water can enter the drive even before the seal gets ruined as the seal is designed to keep oil in...not water out.

The water passage o-ring is that weird shaped o-ring on the left(o-ring is missing but you can see the groove for it).

 

[pantaloonz]

I don't remember seeing that o-ring but I'll check tomorrow and snap a picture.

I see the pictures just fine.. maybe I exceed size limits here are the two best shots I have so far.


I'll take some shots of the pivot housing/transom mounts tomorrow!! After all, the sun'll come out tomorrow.

-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

Oh yeah..loud and clear on the pressure test. I'll be cleaning up the drive and performing the pressure test tomorrow evening .. assuming I don't get solid feedback...that it's a loss cause...

More to come, and thanks so far!

-Pantz

 

[pantaloonz]

additional photos and information: first a full on shot of the the pivot housing. The exhaust bellows is completely dried, there was no water in there.


I can see the pear shaped ring and it looks good. There is some goopy mess near the shift lever.. so we have goopy build up around the shift lever, water in the bellows, and a bone dry exhaust bellow.

Shout the U-Joint bellow be bone dry just like the exhaust bellow or will there always be some grease in there due to the gimbal bearing and drive shaft? I've included a shot of the dipstick and drain/fill screws for good measure, The nylon washer doesn't appear to fit very well around the dipstick it moves freely like it was not designed for this part.. the screws have no gaskets or rings of any kind (normal?)..


The outdrive is in the garage and a buddy is building a stand for it right now so we can get after the pressure test later.

--- I know it seems odd but I'm loving this.. I'm finally understanding how these components work! I'll be taking off the upper unit cap as well and taking a peak down in there as well.

-Pantz

 

[bruceb58]

All the plugs need gaskets/o-rings. The year of the drive determines what type. You always replace these every time you change the gear oil.

You also always replace that pear shaped o-ring every time you pull the drive.

 

[pantaloonz]

I would venture to say, that part was missed during last service... that concerns me I had a marina winterize it, which according to their plan includes a complete gear oil drain and refill.. that seems like a basic step to me that should not have been overlooked.

What do you think of the universal Bruce.. it certainly is pretty darn.. BROWN! .. from my pictures do you see any immediate red flags?

 

[bruceb58]

from my pictures do you see any immediate red flags?

Just a few! LOL

 

[pantaloonz]

Aww c'mon that's not nice..

let me rephrase.. am I up the creek for this thing to continue working??.. If you were my insurance carrier would you total this thing? ..

If you are seeing Thousands of dollars of repairs in my future .. I may take this in very different direction... like craigslist.. ::laugh:

 

[bruceb58]

It's an unknown because of how much water was in the drive and how long it has been run like that. If the water got in and it wasn't driven, then you MAY be ok.

I would be replacing the u-joints and the gimbal bearing depending on how it feels.

Pressure test the drive next. You will obviously need seals for those plugs before you do so.

 

[pantaloonz]

Hi There.

Edited post (I had a valve issue)

Drive is not holding pressure but now it's a slow drop.. and this could be my makeshift contraption pressure device.. I already found the Dipstick value washer was not right, tightening it down was forcing it to go lopsided. It bubbled up nicely with soap and water. Even the new washer is .. testy.. but it at least allows for a good snug fit and no soap bubbly.

The drain plug passed the soapy water test.

can I swith to connecting the pressure device to the drain plug and test the middle fill plug?

The kit only has one small o-ring that would fit either screw... are these screws technically on the lower unit or the upper unit? As this kit I have is the upper housing seal kit.. I'll look up the part number and get a full explanation.

I've checked over the housing, bolt holes etc... not super detailed but as of yet no cracks stand out. I'm going to go ahead an get to cleaning this unit up, improve my pressure testing kit and see where it leads.

The only real leaking issue I found was the dipstick washer, and that crappy gasket,

I think that would explain water in the gear oil, but I still cannot compute why that would be coming out of the pivot housing and upper unit mating point,, that makes no sense to me.

I have to rule out engine oil?.. the engine level hasnt budged, and there no oil pressure drop or piston's knocking...

Glad to have figured out the dipstick issue, still stumped on the gasket leak







-Pantz

 

[skippy2235]

Before my lower unit exploded, Mine would hold 20 psi, for days. Tested it for 48 hrs. kinda by accident. I started the test and then got busy and forgot about it.

 

[bruceb58]

Get the correct gasket for the dipstick and the drain/fill plugs and continue testing. You can do the pressure test in any of the holes.

See if you can rotate the drive shaft while the unit is holding air. You will need to rotate it the exact direction the engine rotates because of the impeller in the drive.

 

[Lou C]

If your testing shows leaking seals beyond the drain plug gaskets then you should find a marine mechanic to re seal it for you. You can replace the gimble bearing, u joints and driveshaft bellows yourself but resealing the drive is beyond what a person just learning to work on outdrives should do.
Once you work through the problems the Cobra is actually a pretty rugged unit.
The one other big thing is learning how to adjust the shift cables and make sure the ESA system works.

 

[pantaloonz]

Well it's 24 yrs old and still runs.. I think that's a pretty rugged engine.

I pulled off the top cap of the upper unit, the gears in there looked brand new, super shiny no skuffs that's a good feeling!

I keep reading responses about "seal jobs" and "resealing" -- I know it's beyond my toolset and knowledge. Is this a series of rings, seals, gaskets.. or is there one or two primary items that give way and need an expert to get to, and repair? What is the typical cost of something like this $1000+?

I've been cleaning up the housing and universals, I finally see some actual metal. May post pictures tomorrow

-Pantz

 

[Idlespeedonly]

The upper gears are not the ones I would worry about.
It would be the lower, where all the water was.
A drive sitting with water in it in not a good thing.

 

[skippy2235]

I have never been in the upper unit, so I can only talk about the lower.
As for sealing the lower unit, there are 2 lip seals on the prop shaft, 1 or 2 o-rings on the prop shaft support bearing, and 2 o-rings on the input shaft.
Very simple to reseal, and so special tools needed for resealing. I used a engine balance puller from harbor freight for the support bearing.

 

[pantaloonz]

Hello again and thank you to everyone who's contributing to this thread.

Hi Idle,.. I agree that allowing the drive components just to sit there in water is a bad idea, which is why I did the full drain, I allowed it to drain while still attached, it drained more when we took it off, it drained still even more as I manipulated it into every angle I could achieve..at the end the fluid was actually greenish in color.. that was a bit of surprise..

I guess I still need to go back to the original problems that started all of this:

Water in the gear oil: Likely culprit was faulty washer on the dipstick. The drain and fill screws were sealed with locktite or something similar as there was a nice loud crack when we broke those open.

Oily fluid leaking from the main gasket: This is the one I keep coming back to. In a perfect world, what should exist the drive shaft bellows?..
-- The drive shaft
-- The universals
-- Grease
-- Air?

Anything else? --

It's very clear that water was in the upper unit, the universals were soaked and the bellows had water. Point blank dumb question: would a failed seal in the lower unit put water into the bellows and upper unit? -- That would mean the leak would have had to been in the lower unit right? -- That does not add up to me. I've read on the fish line cutting prop seals but then I have to ask again how does that put water upstairs and not be contained to the lower unit?

I don't want to oversimplify, but neither do I want to overlook the obvious, there was fluid at the pivot housing/upper unit. Could the fluid have been an oily mix of water and grease from the drive shaft/universal area.If it was indeed gear oil coming out, that would mean the oil was being forced out through the gear compartments, rising up into the bellows areas then finally leaking out through the gasket and top screws....?

Does a water intrusion typically force the other fluid out through the weakest sealing point? - (probably a dumb question but I gotta ask it)

Please...please don't mistake my intent or insinuation that I know better than the people responding to this thread You all know FAR more than I do. I'm just trying to break it down to the simplest issue.

I think it's high time someone invents a waterproof mini cam so we can see inside the drive when it's going!!

I've cleaned her up pretty good:



I would actually enjoy tearing this outdrive down and performing the seal replacements, my biggest issue is the propriety tools required to do the work. I wanted to disassemble the universals so I could clean them up.. don't have the tool.. would love to go after some of the more prominent seals.. don't have the tools...

Bruce, the manual you sent me is absolutely fantastic. -- Thank you again.

--Pantz
boater in progress..

 

[skippy2235]

Like I said, to reseal the lower drive, there are NO special tools. Just a balance puller, that you could loan at autozone.
My guess is same thing with upper, just to pull covers and seals, only take basic hand tools. Make sure you put ALL shims and parts back the same way you found it. just replace the seals / o-rings
Replacing gears, is different.
Also both the upper and lower are connected together and use the same oil. If upper or lower leak, water will get into both sections.
Also the bellows for the drive shaft is separate from upper unit and does NOT seal the upper unit, The drive shaft has seals / o-rings on it, to keep oil in the upper unit.
Here is a theory. The bellows leaked water. Water got into the drive shaft seal and made seal / o-ring go bad, from rust. That rust made that seal fail, and then allow water oil to get into the bellows area.

Yes oil / water will go out the weakest point.
My suggestion is go to ebay and buy a pressure test kit for out-drives, about $50 and will save you thousands in long run.