How much better (i.e., reliable and low maintenance) are new outboard engines?

[HotTommy]

I realize that some will question me posing a question about new outboards on a forum where the newest engines covered are almost 20 years old, but I know you guys so that's what I'm doing. I've long wondered why we have to tolerate engines that don't do well in the very environments we know they must operate (e.g., long periods of inactivity, widely varying water conditions, etc.). For example, why do we have to change impellers so often? Why can't a manufacturer create a closed cooling system that uses a passive intercooler to move heat from the engine into the lake/river/ocean without drawing that water and debris into the innards of the engine? And why can't a manufacturer create a fuel system that allows us to easily drain the tiny passages that clog so easily during periods of inactivity? I've not checked out any new motors, so for all I know they are doing things like that.

So my question is this. Are new motors so much better than the old ones we talk about here that they are worth the cost? Or are they just expensive versions of motors that ultimately provide about the same reliability and demand the same level of maintenance as the old ones? What do you guys think and what experience do you have to back up your opinions?

 

[GA_Boater]

Moved. Why limit the discussion to Force/Chrysler? It concerns all outboards.

 

[HotTommy]

Well, as the Moderator moved this thread, I'll add one more caveat. If you're going to talk about how much better new engines are than old ones, please note what experience you've had with both.

 

[pnwboat]

I think that any newer motor made by a reputable company is going to be less troublesome than an older one. There have been many design improvements made since the late 1990's when the Force motors were no longer being manufactured.

We all have different priorities. For me it's a matter of cost. To replace my motor with a new fuel injected 4 stroke, I'm looking at in the neighborhood of about $10,000 to $12,000 depending on brand and model. My neighbor has a really nice pontoon with a newer very dependable 4 stroke outboard. Besides the initial cost of the motor, he has spent a ton more on general maintenance at the dealership in the past couple of years than I have spent in the past 7 or 8 years on my old Force. He has to take it to the dealership as it has electronic everything. Not saying that a DIY'er couldn't handle it, but it would probably require some specialized equipment. The newer motors are certainly more efficient and more powerful, but for me, it's not that big of a deal. I can do everything I need to do with my old 23+ year old motor just fine, and in some cases even better.

They do have a closed cooling system on some of the very expensive outboards and improvements in the fuel delivery systems as well as improvements in the lower gear case. All of this at a cost. Look at the "7 Marine" outboard WEB site. http://www.seven-marine.com/ They have all of this technology, plus incredible amounts of horsepower (557HP in their base model). You to can own one of these incredible outboards for $70,000+ each.

 

[HotTommy]

I'll expand a little more on the basis of my question. In 2012 I bought a brand new Honda Fit for less than $18,000. I've put more than 60,000 miles (estimated 1,500 engine hours) on it with nothing more than oil changes, filter changes and new tires. So why should it cost almost that much for a 300 HP outboard motor that must see costly dealer maintenance every year? I could see spending $10,000 for a 300 HP outboard that was essentially maintenance free (except for oil and filter changes) for the first 2,000 hours (ten years) of use. Is there such a thing on the market today? .... In other words, if I'm going to pay ten times as much for a new engine, shouldn't it be ten times more reliable and require ten times less maintenance?

 

[minuteman62-64]

I'll expand a little more on the basis of my question. In 2012 I bought a brand new Honda Fit for less than $18,000. I've put more than 60,000 miles (estimated 1,500 engine hours) on it with nothing more than oil changes, filter changes and new tires. So why should it cost almost that much for a 300 HP outboard motor that must see costly dealer maintenance every year? I could see spending $10,000 for a 300 HP outboard that was essentially maintenance free (except for oil and filter changes) for the first 2,000 hours (ten years) of use. Is there such a thing on the market today? .... In other words, if I'm going to pay ten times as much for a new engine, shouldn't it be ten times more reliable and require ten times less maintenance?

Cost and weight?

 

[robert graham]

All my motors have been "older" carbed 2 strokes....I've known quite a few folks with the "newer" 4 stroke outboards.....seems like the "newer" outboards are heavier, more complex, more filters to clog/clean, more fuel pumps to fail, more expensive.....But they're quieter, cleaner burning, more efficient.....so much for progress but I think I'll just keep my 1999 C90 Yamaha......kinda like my Buick with the LT-1 small block Chevy motor....just tough to beat!

 

[Sea Rider]

I'll second that, more things to do to newer OB. That's why will remain a 2 stroke lover forever, don't care if swallows more fuel, are noisier and heavy smokers. Mad Max loves those.

Happy Boating

 

[dingbat]

I know probably 20-15 people that dumped their old, gas guzzling two strokes for 4 strokes. Everyone of them will tell you they will never own a 2 stroke again.

Funny how it's always the 2 strokers going on about the disadvantages of operating a 4 stroke.....yet never hear a 4 stroker complain

 

[HotTommy]

Just so we don't wander too far down the two cycle versus four cycle path, let me repeat the question in slightly different words. Are the new 4 cycle engines more reliable, or do they require less maintenance than 25 year old 2 cycles? And is there any fundamental reason a modern outboard motor can't be made to be almost as reliable and low maintenance as a modern car engine (and at a similar cost)?

 

[Sea Rider]

Can't speak for oldies, if comparing new 2 strokes to new 4 strokes engines both are reliable ones, the difference is that 4 strokes needs much more service than 2 stroke. 4 strokes are near car engines without the car, need oil, filter, timing belt change, need to adjust valve lash, electronic scan and adjustments.

The big tech issue is that all OB don't work with green kryptonite cooler stuff used on car radiators, imagine a portable engine with one huge cooling system inside its hood. Next step will be to install small compact cooling systems as found on larger motorcycles on larger OB engines.

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

I have used most of the old and new motors a great deal, it's an easy choice, new technology will win every time.

I have a carbed 200hp 2 stroke and have used fuel injected 2strokes and 4 strokes, both bigger and smaller, if I were to repower it would definitely be the latest DFI engine available.

People love their old carbed motors right up until they use a new one, at that point the love affair typically ends.

 

[HotTommy]

People love their old carbed motors right up until they use a new one, at that point the love affair typically ends.

So, can a modern DFI engine sit for six months and then start right up and run right 999 times out of a thousand? I understand that modern FI engines are more fuel efficient and burn cleaner, but that's not my question. I want to know about improvements in reliability and lowered maintenance.

 

[ondarvr]

Yes they can, easily, not much different than your car.

 

[Sea Rider]

The sissue is that you have 3 types of outboards. 2 stroke, 4 stroke and 2 stroke EFI. Each own has had or have periodic improvements over time, these improvements can't be applied at same time to all types as being in one sack, to each his own improvement. With regard to least maintenance required would be : 2 strokes > EFI 2 strokes > 4 strokes.

Happy Boating

 

[robert graham]

You ever notice those fishing shows on TV that shows the guys running boats up remote areas of the Amazon and similar rivers?....Almost always running Yamaha 2 stroke Enduros....no 4 stroke outboards in remote areas where the motor REALLY has to be dependable AND field repairable by the operator.....Now if you want an outboard that runs smooth, quiet and efficient like an automobile then the modern 4 strokes are the thing....BUT there's a price to be paid for all that smooth, quiet, efficient....

 

[ondarvr]

Not much money in that part of the world to buy new motors, and not much support for the technology either, so it makes sense to use something simple the locals can work on.

The old VW Beatle was still made and used in Mexico for a very long time, but I'm not sure I would say it's more reliable than a new Toyota Camry.

A new 4 stroke requires an oil change, that's a good 20 minutes of your life used up once or twice a year. Some (not all) need valve adjustments, some people never do them and don't have problems. They need an occasional belt too, rather simple to do on most.

 

[robert graham]

I've had a 1964 VW rail buggy since 1978 and I can say it's rock solid dependable and easy/cheap if repairs are required....but it's no where near as complex as a new Camry....... I just like old stuff that I can understand and work on....part of being a coot/geezer, I guess...

 

[dingbat]

I've had a 1964 VW rail buggy since 1978 and I can say it's rock solid dependable and easy/cheap if repairs are required....but it's no where near as complex as a new Camry....... I just like old stuff that I can understand and work on....part of being a coot/geezer, I guess...

Grew up driving a 63 bug my dad bought new. Drove around with a repair manual in the back. Couldn't make it to my grandparents house in Ohio w/o stopping to adjust the points along the way. Changed plugs annually.

In contrast, I've done nothing but change the oil in the Accord or Civic in 110k miles. Heck, the Accord hasn't been in for its 35k checkup and it got 64k on it.....lol

 

[ondarvr]

Grew up driving a 63 bug my dad bought new. Drove around with a repair manual in the back. Couldn't make it to my grandparents house in Ohio w/o stopping to adjust the points along the way. Changed plugs annually.

In contrast, I've done nothing but change the oil in the Accord or Civic in 110k miles. Heck, the Accord hasn't been in for its 35k checkup and it got 64k on it.....lol

I think at 100,000 miles a VW would be on its 10th major tune up and almost that many valve adjustments if you went by the manual. Mine always ran, but I never left the house without the toolbox and manual. And not to mention the steering, had to adjust the steering box every now and then or the front end would start shaking. Lets not forget the heater either, even though they did.