Fuel/Water Separator Inquiry.-

[Sea Rider]

A friend of mine wants to install a a fuel/water separator system which already has purchased. the one with disposable filter, was wondering when can you tell when filter is completely overfilled ? As those filters aren't transparent can't tell so you must..

- Change filter periodically
- Remove, drain filter from time to time, screw back.
- Wait for the engine to miss, be screwed, whichever.

Best side to install a fuel/water separator system on a portable 18 HP engine

Tank > Primer Bulb > Filter > Engine
Tank > Filter > Primer Bulb > Engine

Which installation applies best and why.

Happy Boating

 

[Chris1956]

It takes a fair amount of water (1 pint +), to fill them up, where you will have trouble. Also, that low HP motor isn't going to go thru too much fuel, and the alcohol in today's gasoline absorbs water. He could dump them out into a clear container every month and see how much water he is getting.

Tank-filter-primer-engine is my vote....

 

[Sea Rider]

Thanks,

With respect to fuel flow in Galons per Hour, can chose from 25 to 90 GLP, which one would be suitable for an 18 HP. Which GLP is the most friendly, provides less effort on fuel pump while sucking fuel through complete fuel system.

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

Tank-filter-primer bulb-motor is the normal setup, but it doesn't need to be this way. Most filters have two outlets, and supping two motors needs the primer bulbs plumbed in this manner.

As for changing it, in 15 years I'm on my second filter, and have never found any water or debris in the filters at any time. But your situation could easily be much different.

You could fill up with water contaminated fuel the first time out and have it full, or have crap in the tank that plugs it up. You just never know.

 

[Sea Rider]

Was imaging same, what about filter fuel flow in GPH, need one that handles 25-50-90 GLP ? 10 micron filter, right ?

Happy Boating

 

[ondarvr]

It's not going to make a difference on an 18. The fuel flow is so little there will be no restriction.

 

[UncleWillie]

It's not going to make a difference on an 18. The fuel flow is so little there will be no restriction.

+1
An 18hp will be lucky to use 2 Gal per Hour. You can't buy a filter that's too small.

It you re-fill the tanks often, and there is any water in the filter, it will dissolve into the fresh gas, and eventually the filter will be water free again.

 

[Sea Rider]

It you re-fill the tanks often, and there is any water in the filter, it will dissolve into the fresh gas, and eventually the filter will be water free again.

Usually fill my 6 gal portable tank to just halve, like running fresh fuels. Generally consume near all of it for that outing, for next one have 3 fresh gallons to go boating with. That's why don't use a fuel/water separator on my engine.

The issue with the original inquire is that owner will sit his E8 fuel forever as he intends to use his 18 when his J24 encounters no wind, and that can happen once in a long while. Sitting E fuels for long time periods without fuel aditives will l turn them rancid and engine performance won't be best as running fresh E fuels.

Thanks for the imput.

Happy Boating

 

[UncleWillie]

Those details were left out of the original inquiry.
It would be prudent if he dumped the OB can into his car once or twice a year and re-filled the tank with fresh fuel.

If the portable tank is well sealed from the atmosphere, the fuel will remain usable for a very long time.
Oxygen causes more deterioration to the fuel than water vapor. And air contains a lot more Oxygen than Water.
Water gets way more blame than it deserves.
Keep the tank vents closed so it has positive pressure internally and no Air/Oxygen/Water will be able to enter.

 

[Sea Rider]

Regarding local boaters intentions you must always be one step ahead of them. They think E fuels behaves same as non E ones. Assuming the portable tank is kept sheltered inside closed cockpit with cap and air valve completely sealed, wont E fuel turn stale, rancid , lose some octane rating over time. No local fuel additives are sold here, so that won't be a nice option to count with.

Knowing the boater, assume emptying his fuel tank for car use will be too much hassle for him as his sailboat is anchored at least 100 Mt from shore. So poor or difficult starts will surely be expected if maintaining unused sitting fuel for long time periods.

Happy Boating

 

[UncleWillie]

Well, if the Boat owner is adverse to rotating his fuel, The next best option is to make sure the fuel tank remains tightly closed.

Contrary to popular belief, E-Fuels do not contain any magic "Pheromones" that attract water.
The deterioration of the fuel over time is mostly a matter of simple chemical reactions.
If the fuel is kept in a closed, non-reactive container, and not allowed to come in contact with any other chemicals like Air, Water, Oxygen, etc.
It will not have anything to react with, and can feasibly be stored for times measured in years.

There is another group of folks that think that pressure in a tank is Dangerous/Explosive and purposely keep the vent open or open it on a regular basis to relieve the pressure. All those lost vapors are the lighter components of the fuel that make Gasoline different from Kerosene/Diesel.
After repeatedly venting off "The Good Stuff" their Gasoline starts to impersonate Diesel Fuel and operation of the motor becomes difficult.

A method I have been promoting as a "Poor Man Fuel Test" is to place a sample of fuel in a half filled glass jar.
Water contaminated fuel is cloudy and milky/opaque looking.
Fresh gas looks clear and very light Amber/Yellow.
Oxidized fuel is a Dark Amber/Brownish color.
If, after vigorously shaking the jar, the "Head" of Foam lingers for longer than 5 seconds, the fuel has Oxidized and is full of "Gum".

 

[Sea Rider]

The argument that E fuels & Brake Fluid are hydroscopic elements, tends to absorve moisture from air, isn't so ? When we used to be E fuel free 3 years ago there weren't any water issues related, all OB engines worked flawlessly, now there's huge boating problems with E like : old fiberglass tanks being eaten, thin rubber parts, o'rings, fuel filter have faster detereoration rate inclusive carb skin noticeable decoloration, rust issues, etc, etc.

The other day while at my favourite fuel service station saw while operators were servicing the fuel pumps that fuel/water separator filters were almost full. Having high humidity through out the whole year that's probably were E fuels attracts moisture from, including E plant, transports, etc

Local E8 fuel can get stale, rancid in less than 15 days, even the odor changes, no matter how well is container sealed. That's why always buy high octane fresh. fuel and avoid performance problems that won't be able to deal with . It's understood that will need to live changing more parts often due to premature failure than before but still be boating happily.

So according to your test, if fuel is oxidized should still be usable or not for OB use ? Local E es made out of sugar crane, is US same ?

Happy Boating

 

[UncleWillie]

There is no reason your gas should go "Bad" in less than a month if properly stored.
"Properly Stored" is the operative phrase here.
Place some gasoline in a sealed jar and leave it in a shed for a few months to see if goes bad.
If the gas in your fuel tanks looks considerably worse in the same period; the problem is in the tanks, not in the gas.

In the picture above, the Gummy/Foamy Jar on the Right was originally Full.
I left it completely uncovered for just a week. About half of it evaporated and the remainder Oxidized badly from the Oxygen in the air passing over it. It is notable, that although fully exposed to the atmosphere, No noticeable water accumulated in the fuel.
The water contaminated fuel on the Left is a product of purposely adding small amounts of water to the gas until it finally separated and turned cloudy.

Another phenomenon that I would not have suspected, is that if the Cloudy/Watery Gas is left open to the air,
it will equalize with the atmosphere and the water will evaporate out of the fuel. Leaving the fuel clear again.
Oxidized and Gummy but clear of the water. Interesting!

The question of what to do with the gasoline that you have determined is "Bad" is an entirely separate subject.
As many people don't realize that the gas has seen better days and blindly burn it in their engines, Indicates that Yes!, you can use the Bad Gas.
It may not be the most desirable action. It may work poorly, but it will usually work.
Burning it in another engine that you care less about is another often suggested option.
And then there are the other environmentally unfriendly suggestions that we will just ignore.
My suggestion is to dilute any questionable fuel with MORE than an equal volume of Fresh Gas, and use it as soon as possible.

As you might be thinking, I seem to be some kind of an eccentric on this subject. Well, Yes!
My Theory: It is OK to be a little Crazy, as long as you KNOW you are a Little Crazy!

 

[Sea Rider]

Bill,

I'm cracy myself, one step behind being secluded in a mental institute. Just wanted to know the tech facts about E fuels to make top boating which I'm doing. Thanks for your kind feed backs and time, really appreciated.

Happy Boating

 

[Sea Rider]

Owner has not bolted his fuel water separator to a fixed position as one should. Has opted for a strange tank > fuel water separator > outter fuel connector removable configuration. Was wondering when fuel water separator begins collecting water at lower filter portion what will happen with lower water when constantly putting and removing set up from sailboat.

Bear in mind that set up will have fuel water separator working in vertical reclined to something position just when engine is on but definitively be lying sideways when not in use inside his suv's trunk. Could there be a possible water & fuel mixing again condition inside filter . Any thoughts.

Happy Boating

 

[UncleWillie]

Water naturally sinks and is the process that the separator filters use to separate the water.
The water/Fuel mix arrive at a relatively high velocity via the smaller diameter fuel line.
It enters the filter that has a cross section of 2-3 inches and slows down dramatically.
The water sinks naturally via gravity, and the process is as simple as that.
If you turn the filter on its side and agitate it the water will become mixed mechanically, then readily settle out.
When turned upright the water will be back in the bottom of the filter within a minute.

Separated water/alcohol passing directly into the cylinders will be incompressible and very bad.
Water dissolved in the fuel will vaporize in the carburetor with the gas and pass harmlessly through the engine.

As new fresh gas passes through the filter it will tend to redissolve the existing water. Not a problem.
If you go through fresh tanks often, the water will eventually disappear. Isn't physics neat!

 

[dingbat]

Owner has not bolted his fuel water separator to a fixed position as one should. Has opted for a strange tank > fuel water separator > outter fuel connector removable configuration. Was wondering when fuel water separator begins collecting water at lower filter portion what will happen with lower water when constantly putting and removing set up from sailboat.

Bear in mind that set up will have fuel water separator working in vertical reclined to something position just when engine is on but definitively be lying sideways when not in use inside his suv's trunk. Could there be a possible water & fuel mixing again condition inside filter . Any thoughts.

Happy Boating

There is nothing but gravity separating the water from the fuel.

The fuel comes in the top of the filter. The water, being heavier than fuel, falls to the bottom of the collection bowl and the "clean" fuel is then sucked off the top.
Allowing the filter to go out of vertical will reintroduce the water back into the fuel mixture.

 

[Sea Rider]

Allowing the filter to go out of vertical will reintroduce the water back into the fuel mixture.

Can understand the last line, what if owner after getting the hose out of his car's trunk, reinstall hose to tank and engine and let the separator stand for some time at a vertical positon, assume water will be returned to lower filter, right ? If works that way, then won't be any issue putting and removing hose from sailboat, provided than on re installation will need some time for water to settle down on filter, right. Thought that once water was trapped at lower filter would stay there permanently.

Sorry for the stupid question, just blows my brain off how this idiotic boater having invested 20 grand overhauling a complete sailboat can't afford to bolt separator to a suitable fixed vertical position and extend hose lenght from separator outlet to engine and voil?.

Happy Boating

 

[UncleWillie]

Sorry for the stupid question, just blows my brain off how this idiotic boater having invested 20 grand overhauling a complete sailboat can't afford to bolt separator to a suitable fixed vertical position and extend hose lenght from separator outlet to engine and voil?.
Happy Boating

Famous Quote, "You can't fix Stupid."
As an observation of people in general, I find that; There are those that do as much as possible; And those that do as little as necessary.
He is part of the second group!

 

[Sea Rider]

Bill,

So in reality there isn't a : once water is trapped at lower filter stays at a permanently sitting condition, not supposed to be a filter/membrane barrier that won't let water return to the other side ?

Happy Boating