Evinrude vs. Mercury

BillP

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Hey wakebite...you are a bit arrogant but it doesn't matter. You can be as superior as you want and I don't mind. :D You are a dealer so I can see why you say merc stands behind "legit" problems. My issue with them is they won't admit to "legit" problems (50 4s watertube corossion at powerhead). Me being a past and present merc (mariner)owner do not have that same viewpoint of factory customer care. I put merc way behind omc, yahama and suzuki in caring about customers. <br /><br />Merc has always been at the top of technology...maybe that's why they break down so much?<br /><br />Where is the resale higher for 4 strokes? My 50 4 stroke cost almost exactly the same as a 70 2 stroke in 1996. Now the 70 2 stroke has a higher book value. My 50 4 stroke is barely higher than a 50 2 stroke. <br /><br />Get the 2 stroke.
 

Forktail

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Where is the resale higher for 4 strokes?
At every shop that sells used outboards. Or you can compare their bank (book) prices here...<br /><br />www.nada.com<br /><br />For example (apples to apples) a 1996 50 HP 4-stroke Mariner (ELPT) has an average book retail of $2,040. A 1996 50 HP 2-stroke Mariner (ELPTO) has an average book retail of $1,740. That's a 15% better resale for the 4-stroke. <br /><br />Other brands will show even greater resale value. For example a 1996 Yamaha F50 (TLHU) will book for an average retail of $2,500. That's over a 30% better resale than the Mariner 2-stroke.<br /><br />And remember, book value isn't always what customers pay. I've found here that when it comes to used outboards, cutomers want 4-strokes over 2-strokes, and the average price the customer is willing to pay is higher than book. Obviously it could depend on where you are. 4-strokes are preferred here in Alaska. I recently sold a 4-stroke outboard for twice what book listed. <br /><br />
My 50 4 stroke cost almost exactly the same as a 70 2 stroke in 1996.
What you originally paid is irrelevant to re-sale value. You could've paid anything, or one dealer might charge a customer more than another. Maybe you got suckered on the 4-stroke deal, and got a break on the 2-stroke deal? It's kind of like wondering what the guy sitting next to you on the airplane paid for his seat.<br /><br />BTW, Mariner didn't make a 70 HP 2-stroke in 1996, so I'm not sure what you're comparing your 50 HP Mariner 4-stroke to. It looks like an apples to oranges comparison IMO.<br /><br />If you want to compare outboards of different power ratings, or compare various prices originally paid vs various resale values, or area markets, value of different brands, etc., we would need to start a new thread and take some serious data. <br /><br />Regardless, when talking "resale", I don't think you'll find any apples-to-apples case where a 2-stroke has a higher resale than a 4-stroke. There is a reason. ;)
 

james082273

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

If you don't include the initial retail cost in the comparison I don't think it makes a lot of sense. For example if a new purchase of a 4-stroke cost 25% more than the comparable 2-stroke but the resale cost 5-years down the road is only 15% more then I would think the 2-stroke has a better resale VALUE. It did in fact hold its value better. <br /><br />Just my opinion so don't pound on me to much ;) !
 

Forktail

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Jon, the only problem is that not everyone pays the same for new outboards. And not everyone buys used ones for book price. <br /><br />Plus you would have to figure in the use that the owner got out of the outboard before selling. I get many more hours out of my 4-strokes than my 2-strokes. And I find them less expensive to operate. This in itself makes up for inital cost difference. <br /><br />Not all outboards are used the same way, or taken care of in the same manner. Some are sold worn out or rebuilt. Some are sold like new. Some have added options, extended warranties, or come with boat deals. <br /><br />For example, a like-new 2-stroke may resale better than a worn out 4-stroke, and like-wise. I might get a better deal on a 4-stroke purchases, because that is what my dealer orders in large quanities from the factory. If I live in bass tourny country, I might get better resale on a 2-stroke short shaft than a 4-stroke long shaft. If I live in salt country, I might get better resale on a long shaft 4-stroke than a 2-stroke shorty.<br /><br />But when speaking strictly book resale value, you will have trouble finding a 2-stroke with a better resale than a 4-stroke. And that says something IMO.
 

quantumleap

Master Chief Petty Officer
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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Hey BillP., Before bashing Merc's customer service check out Jacko58's thread in the Merc forum under "Opti-225" here's an excerpt-<br /><br /> :cool:
 

quantumleap

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Whoops, here is part of that thread:<br /><br />"Now you can say you saw a company replace both powerheads with fully dressed 2004 powerheads Yep...Merc decided to replace both.<br />That is how a good company stands behind their product. Hats off to Merc!!"
 

jegervais

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

While I'm at it, would you like me to list all the Yamaha HPDI and 4-Stroke ones too?
 

Forktail

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Sure John. It would be great to see a comparison between all three DFI's based on service bulletins, design modifications, part number changes, supplier changes, warranty claims, law suits, safety recalls, etc. My guess is the FICHTS hold the record. But I know you'll never admit that...because you sell them. :D <br /><br />Either way, it would just drive home my point that DFI's suck. :D
 

BillP

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Forktail,<br /><br />I'm talking list prices. A merc 50 2 stroke in 1996 probably listed $1500+ less than a mariner 50 4 stroke back then. It is fuzzy math to compare motors that had a list price delta like that. There weren't any "deals" here on 4 strokes in 96 because everyone was getting sucked into the hype and buying them as fast as they showed up on the showroom floor. I paid list price and had to go on a waiting list for months to buy it! <br /><br />My Mariner listed for about $5600 in 1996. It was almost the exact same price for a new Merc sitting next to it on the showroom floor, which I remembered as a 70 but must have been a 75. I remember the prices being so close it was a wash. For the same dollars spent in 96 a bigger 2 stroke now has a higher resale compared to the 4 stroke.<br /><br />I don't really care who thinks which is better or how much resale they have. I've got enough years and hrs running the 50 4s to know what I like. I'm doing another 2 stroke next time.<br /><br />quantumleap,<br />That case of a power head replacement by merc is such an exception it isn't worthy of credit. A distant friend of mine is a merc dealer...he tells me too many stories of battles with merc and their lack of response on known engine defects. <br /><br />How many mercs and other brands have you owned?I've had maybe 20 obs and merc has always been the worst for reliablity (not including Chrysler).
 

Forktail

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

I'm talking list prices.
Well, I'm talking resale value....which was in answer to your question of, "Where is the resale higher for 4 strokes?"<br /><br />Most outboard manufacturers don't publish "list prices". Selling prices are dealer established prices. And each dealer will generally have a different price. Sometimes prices will fluxuate over $1000 between dealers. You obviously paid a lot for your Mariner 4-stroke in 1996 (waiting list??), and the 75 HP 2-stroke next to it for the same price was a steal.<br /><br />If you're going to consider original purchase price into "resale", then you need to consider a whole bunch of other things...like operating costs during ownership (fuel consumption, etc.), which one has a longer useful life (longevity), a difference in warranties (included as part of the initial cost you pay), etc.<br /><br />Comparing a 75 HP to a 50 HP at resale time is obviously apples to oranges.<br /><br />Again Bill, apples to apples, you'll have trouble finding a 2-stroke with a better resale than a 4-stroke. And that says something IMO.
 

MajBach

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Forktail: <br />Your arguement for resale value makes little sense to me either. 'Resale' value is another way of saying 'depreciates less', so of course the out-of-the-box price is significant. Certainly this figure changes from location to location, as does options and warranties etc. but the resale value also changes with it. In your original arguement, you used resale value as an axample of a reason to buy new, i.e. out-of-box-price. A used Ferrari will always sell higher used than a Honda but I could buy ten new Hondas for the price of one Ferrari. But if those same ten Hondas sold used add up to more than the price of one used Ferrari, then the resale value of the Honda is better because it depreciated less over the same time period of the Ferrari, expressed as a percentage of the original sticker price. That is the ONLY meaning of resale value, i.e. book value. And that is the ONLY context it can be used in an argument supporting reasons to buy brand new.
 

phatmanmike

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

people people cant we all just get a suzuki 4stroke v6 EFI 250 on the back of our 13' whalers and see who dies first?
 

quantumleap

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Bill, not to be sarcastic, but if you've owned 20 O.B.'s and merc was the least reliable brand, then when you were buying a new one in 96 why did you pick a merc? In addition, how do you decide which warranty work can be credited to good customer service? If they replaced the powerheads on two 225's that is awesome customer service. period. :confused:
 

Forktail

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Majbach, look at it this way...<br /><br />Apples to apples, resale of a 4-stroke is higher. This is true whether it's book value, bank value, floor price, owner's price, etc. Undeniably, 4-strokes simply resale for more.<br /><br />With that said, lets discuss initial cost and depreciation. <br /><br />Outboards are a big part of my commercial operation. I'm in business to make money, and spend as little as possible. If 2-strokes were cost-saving, I'd be running them. So like resale value, an outboard's initial cost and depreciation are big considerations for me.<br /><br />When I consider "depreciation" of my outboards, I must consider useful life, and the condition they are in when they are retired. You could classify this as longevity and durability.<br /><br />I have found (by actually using both 2-strokes and 4-strokes) that my 4-strokes depreciate over a longer time. They simply last longer, and can be run more hours before expensive repairs are needed.<br /><br />For example, where I might get 1500 hours out of a 2-stroke 50 HP, I might 2500 hours out of a 4-stroke 50 HP. I have some smaller 4-stroke kickers that have gone 3 or 4 times the life of similar 2-stroke kickers. "Depreciation" can certainly be extended with 4-strokes. <br /><br />Plus, by operating 4-strokes I have eliminated the "surprise" costs associated with 2-stroke failures during ownership (during depreciation). Some of these costs include seized pistons, powerhead replacements, and lost business due to down time. When these costs occur half way through the expected life of the outboard, I have no choice but to eat it. I can't remember ever having a sudden failure with a 4-stroke. I simply retire them when they give basic signs of being worn out. <br /><br />"Initial costs" are "sunk costs". So when I consider them, I must consider whether or not the extra expense of a 4-stroke will return to me. There are many ways to classify the return. Fuel economy, maintenance expense, repairs, warranty, longevity (depreciation life), resale, reliability, safety, and overall enjoyment to own, etc.<br /><br />I have found that the initial price of 4-strokes are a bargin in disguise. I can make up the difference in fuel costs alone, just within the first 1000 hours. And I don't have to replace them with new one's as frequently. Repair bills are down. Warranty is better. They're more reliable and safer. My clients prefer them (quiet, no smoke, etc).<br /><br />And yes MajBach...Resale is always more too. Another benefit to buying a 4-stroke.<br /><br />As I said before, if you don't want to strictly look at "resale", and you want to consider purchase price too, then you must consider all other aspects that factor into that purchase price as well. <br /> <br />Bottom line is that you'll get more for your 4-stroke when it's time for resale.<br /><br />BTW, the new E-TEC's (with their "expense to own" claims, good warranty, and benefits and features), kind of throw a wrench into things. When they've proven reliable in a commercial environment, I'll probably try a pair. But remember....their intial cost is comparable with a 4-stroke EFI. ;)
 

BillP

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

quantumleap,<br /><br />I ask myself that too but be aware I don't mind taking risks. The reason I bought several mercs is because I thought they were getting better. I went approx 10 yrs between each motor and gave it a try. I bought the last one because it was a 4 stroke made by yamaha. Like I posted earlier, deals on 4 strokes weren't happening in my neighborhood back in 1996 and choices were few.<br /><br />Sure, replacing powerheads is great customer service. I just don think merc makes it easy on the customer in most cases. I'll bet there is a good story behind your one case. Do you have any idea how many stators went bad and merc told owners to eat it? Every merc owner I know of had to buy stators very early in the engines life...except one. That's the stuff I'm talking about.
 

quantumleap

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Bill, actually if you read the post I was refering to, Jacko58 had over 20 documented cases of Mercury either replacing the entire motor or installing a fully dressed powerhead in the cases linked to his problem. He states that he had dates and serial numbers of those motors that were fixed under warranty. Now, I don't know him any better than you or anyone else on this forum, but it sounds like he did his homework and researched his problem before approaching Merc. and thus had satisfactory results. Once again, I would say those 20 cases exemplify awesome customer service! I have no reason to doubt his word and neither should you. Although, it seems you already have your mind set on this subject, and the very fact that you are using their products seems to contradict your argument of Merc.s alleged poor customer service. Let's just agree not to agree on this one. ;)
 

BillP

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Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

quantumleap,<br />Sure, I agree to disagree and yes my mind is made up. I personally wouldn't take one person's post about merc replacing powerheads as truth for anything and I don't make decisions based on one or two people's experience. Maybe they did replace the heads but in the big picture 20 motors are a speck the size of one micron compared to all the mercs under warranty. <br /><br />You shouldn't take my ownership of a merc as a contradiction of anything either. My motor has never been in for warranty work. It has nothing to do with how merc handles people or what my opinion is of how they deal with customer warranty issues. It sounds like you are saying if a person owns a product it HAS to be ok and the individual can only have postive feelings about the product. Isn't that kinda like someone saying "It can't be bad because I own one"? Too pround to admit it really.
 

montanaman

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Feb 27, 2004
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49
Re: Evinrude vs. Mercury

Getting back to the original question of this post, Littlehaku there are many options in the 115 hp range. Try and test drive as many as possible and note how each engine feels to you. Each engine whether it is 2 stroke, 4 stroke, Merc, E/J, Yam, etc. will have its own individual FEEL to it. Once you have decided which engine you like best make sure you find a dealer that you are comfortable with, make sure you have a warm fuzzy that this dealer will take care of you if something goes wrong. Good customer service at your local dealer will be a large factor 5 or 10 years down the road. Good luck in your quest.
 
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