Fuel stabilizer and E-0 advice needed

[ondarvr]

As a disclaimer, the product used in the country Sea Rider lives in is in no way the same product we use here, they are very different beasts.

If that's how well a Tohatsu fuel diaphragm holds up after limited use (although hours run mean little, it's actual time of exposure), then it's not the right type of material for the job.

The miracle in a bottle stuff is not going to protect rubber that's not up to the job on its own.

 

[dingbat]

If that's how well a Tohatsu fuel diaphragm holds up after limited use (although hours run mean little, it's actual time of exposure), then it's not the right type of material for the job.

the use of Ethanol compliant materials have been mandated in the US for 30+ years.

Hard telling what regulations are in place in Central and South America.

 

[ondarvr]

Yes, that's what the disclaimer was for.

 

[Sea Rider]

Just having a friendly tech conversation about carbed portable outboards.

Dingbat, do you think that Tohatsu Japan will make rubber components that deals with E fuels just for USA market, sorry but posted pic is a fuel pump diaphragm bought from a US Tohatsu dealer. Don't find anything special, about material, color, even thickness, or whatever between local imported Japan made parts and those same exported to, bought from USA.

Ondarvr quote : hours run mean little, it's actual time of exposure. If counting with an hour tach, which I do, run time is same as time of exposure, that's E fuel being pumped through diaphragm during non constant 50 metered run hours. Besides always run my fuel pump/carb dry after each outing while flushing all my outboards.

The issue is that if you have not disassembled same rubber parts used on E and non E fuels, won't have the slight idea what happens to them. Not saying that those components will be destroyed shortly, saying that will deteriorate faster as opposed to using non E fuels.

Do yourself a practical cheap cost test. Dip 2 same rubber o'rings, say the ones found inside fuel filter housing, one in E fuel, other on same non E fuel for some days, weeks and we'll talk latter. BTW have seen same issues on other portable outboard brands as well. On cars, machines that have electronic fuel injection not a single issue, it's all about carbed engines. OP was just asking it it was ok to use non E fuels if available which highly recommend.

Happy Boating

 

[bruceb58]

We had a carb'd Tohatsu and ran it every year with E10. Never an issue. Same goes for our carb'd Mercury and carb'd Honda.

 

[ondarvr]

Just having a friendly tech conversation about carbed portable outboards.

Dingbat, do you think that Tohatsu Japan will make rubber components that deals with E fuels just for USA market, sorry but posted pic is a fuel pump diaphragm bought from a US Tohatsu dealer. Don't find anything special, about material, color, even thickness, or whatever between local imported Japan made parts and those same exported to, bought from USA.

Ondarvr quote : hours run mean little, it's actual time of exposure. If counting with an hour tach, which I do, run time is same as time of exposure, that's E fuel being pumped through diaphragm during non constant 50 metered run hours. Besides always run my fuel pump/carb dry after each outing while flushing all my outboards.

The issue is that if you have not disassembled same rubber parts used on E and non E fuels, won't have the slight idea what happens to them. Not saying that those components will be destroyed shortly, saying that will deteriorate faster as opposed to using non E fuels.

Do yourself a practical cheap cost test. Dip 2 same rubber o'rings, say the ones found inside fuel filter housing, one in E fuel, other on same non E fuel for some days, weeks and we'll talk latter. BTW have seen same issues on other portable outboard brands as well. On cars, machines that have electronic fuel injection not a single issue, it's all about carbed engines. OP was just asking it it was ok to use non E fuels if available which highly recommend.

Happy Boating

Let's see, I started working on outboards sometime in the mid 60's, motorcycles a few years later, started using E-10 and other blended fuels around 1990, so I have a good deal of experience with carbs using both products, so yes, I've seen what each does.

Products ordered for or from the USA may have different spec's than those for other countries or regions, this can be for many reasons, some items may be better and some may be worse, you need to know those differences prior to using them. I'm not saying that's the case in this situation, only that it's common.

Since I run E-10 100% of the time, and I don't have fuel pump and/or carb related problems with it, and you say you do, something is different in the fuel, the products, or how we use them. Since there can possibly be many differences between the products and fuel used in your country when compared to those used here, I don't think that you can make a direct correlation between the two different results.

The hour meter only tells you the exact running hours, not the length of time the diaphragm is actually exposed to the fuel, you aren't removing all the fuel when you run it dry, only the majority of it, so the diaphragm is still being exposed to the fuel.

It may even be worse, vapors tend to permeate a surface faster and easy than a liquid, so having an air space in the fuel system could expose the components to a much harsher environment than when it's full and the parts are being immersed.

 

[JimS123]

Please re-read the last line of what you quoted me saying.

I don't do it as a feel good, I do it because that's what the freakin owner's manual said.....all the way back to 1955.

And I'm saying that these products DO work. No tiptoeing.

 

[ondarvr]

Not trying to upset anyone, just looking at the results from decades of people that use the products all the time, and those that don't, long term storage can help, short has little to no benefit. And long term isn't a month or so.

 

[Sea Rider]

Some acclarations, been in the transition process between non E fuels and E8 fuels, soon after E8 fuels were locally introduced started giving probelms such as internal fiberglass tanks begining to leak, fuel spills and all sorts of rubber, plastic component deteoration.

Found that when removing fuel pump diaphragms in good working order for internal reed valve inspection and cleaning won't fit/sit again on it's base due to being extrmely warped, elongated & ballooned, this problem was not experienced with non E fuels whatsoever. If you?re the kind of boater that likes changing complete fuel pump won't see what's been pointing out.

Don't buy that US fuels are different to ours, all fuels must meet international standars, if yours are so special why don't we have problems with imported US cars while using our E8 fuels, besides all are fuel injected, don't have interal diaphragms on injectors and consequently trouble free issues with E fuels.

Ondarvr, you definitely like seeking 3 feet to a cat, like adding extra information to give some sort of tech emphasis to hold your post that's been pointed out as not being so. Now let's blame E fuel vapor lock inside fuel pumps for premature diaphragm deteoration. The more fuel and running time pumped throughout any mechanical fuel pump, will detreorate internal diaphragm much faster than when sitting dry and solely refreshed by fuel vapors hidden inside pump. Sorry, you blew it on this one.

Having 55 years of experience with carbed engines, did you found warped, elongated diaphragams, rubber o'rings that didn't sit well once removed and re installed where originall seated ? or just went installing new flat diaphragm or complete new fuel pump and voil?, problem solved.

In my particular case this vapor lock abberation, will not be given as mentioned, soon after fuel line is disconnected from OB, a spare female connector is hooked onto engine's male connector to keep fuel valve pin opened. Can run OB for extended time period while being flushed and consequently carb sucking all fuel found inside fuel pump lines, fuel pump itself along carb till OB drops dead. Fresh air entering through female connector while pin is kept opened will have 0 restriction as for the carb to suck fuel remains while OB is flushed at fast idle.

We won't possibly be in the least accordance with E fuels and diaphragms, o'rings related premature detereoration issues, seems we have excesively high jacked OP post. Don't forget doing the o'ring E - Non E fuel test and reach your own conclusions.

Happy Boating

 

[bruceb58]

Some acclarations

What is an acclaration?

 

[ondarvr]

Some acclarations, been in the transition process between non E fuels and E8 fuels, soon after E8 fuels were locally introduced started giving probelms such as internal fiberglass tanks begining to leak, fuel spills and all sorts of rubber, plastic component deteoration.

Found that when removing fuel pump diaphragms in good working order for internal reed valve inspection and cleaning won't fit/sit again on it's base due to being extrmely warped, elongated & ballooned, this problem was not experienced with non E fuels whatsoever. If you?re the kind of boater that likes changing complete fuel pump won't see what's been pointing out.

Don't buy that US fuels are different to ours, all fuels must meet international standars, if yours are so special why don't we have problems with imported US cars while using our E8 fuels, besides all are fuel injected, don't have interal diaphragms on injectors and consequently trouble free issues with E fuels.

Ondarvr, you definitely like seeking 3 feet to a cat, like adding extra information to give some sort of tech emphasis to hold your post that's been pointed out as not being so. Now let's blame E fuel vapor lock inside fuel pumps for premature diaphragm deteoration. The more fuel and running time pumped throughout any mechanical fuel pump, will detreorate internal diaphragm much faster than when sitting dry and solely refreshed by fuel vapors hidden inside pump. Sorry, you blew it on this one.

Having 55 years of experience with carbed engines, did you found warped, elongated diaphragams, rubber o'rings that didn't sit well once removed and re installed where originall seated ? or just went installing new flat diaphragm or complete new fuel pump and voil?, problem solved.

In my particular case this vapor lock abberation, will not be given as mentioned, soon after fuel line is disconnected from OB, a spare female connector is hooked onto engine's male connector to keep fuel valve pin opened. Can run OB for extended time period while being flushed and consequently carb sucking all fuel found inside fuel pump lines, fuel pump itself along carb till OB drops dead. Fresh air entering through female connector while pin is kept opened will have 0 restriction as for the carb to suck fuel remains while OB is flushed at fast idle.

We won't possibly be in the least accordance with E fuels and diaphragms, o'rings related premature detereoration issues, seems we have excesively high jacked OP post. Don't forget doing the o'ring E - Non E fuel test and reach your own conclusions.

Happy Boating

You have so many misunderstandings and false assumptions in there that it's difficult to even respond.

Start by investigating how Gore-Tex works.


All of the problems you mentioned with fiberglass fuel tanks, fittings, O-rings diaphragms, etc, we went through in about 1990, it's been pretty well sorted out by now. And we use E-10, which would be worse than your E-8, but that's only if the two fuels are actually the same other than the E content.

 

[flyingscott]

I agree with ondarvar about the fuel system issues being sorted out years ago you just don't see that much of it any more. Most of that is on low hrs motors which could be ethanol or just because it's low hrs. The real problem with e-10 is it's ability to absorb water which it is very good at that is most of the reason for the additives.

 

[Sea Rider]

Ondarvr, fuel tank degradation was just one example which doesn't apply as I use modern portable plastic tanks. Thought you were going to refute all about my general post with these high tech proven answers of yours, what happened, run out of tech answers limiting your post to a very poor "You have so many misunderstandings and false assumptions" The difference between me and you is that I like to extensively experiment, document my findings under trail & error, take pics, which you olympically ignore and mock in exchange of unproven theory, word of mouth talk you love giving. He who doesn't want to look beyond it's nose...

Non E fuels whenever possible...

Happy Boating

 

[jbcurt00]

Agree to disagree fellas, this has run its course, again......

The OP started this topic a week ago, and hasn't been back on iboats since.

Closed

Thank you

isaksp00, PM any Mod and ask them to re-open this topic if you wish.