4.3L - what were the first years TBI and MPI fuel injection was available?

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Where did you get the $21 per plug price, ....

Right here...

I'm already here, but only for my vehicles, as you can see....I've done the Chrysler Hemi tune up with 16 spark plugs that the dealer charges $350 for, plus all the other maintenance this complex vehicle requires....

How did we move from electronic ignition and fuel injection to exhaust systems??
 

thumpar

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I'm already here, but only for my vehicles, as you can see....I've done the Chrysler Hemi tune up with 16 spark plugs that the dealer charges $350 for, plus all the other maintenance this complex vehicle requires. The shop manual which I also have, is over 7,000 pages long. Yes you read that right.
And I'll still say, I can tell you I drove cars with carbs/old school ignition from 1972-1988, and was never stranded by a carb failure, only a points failure (fixed in ten minutes) on a '65 VW Beetle. I don't think most of you are even old enough to have had the experiences I have had.

Does no one restore classic muscle cars in Aust? Because of those that do here, 95% of them retain the old school systems because guess what, they are much more reliable if maintained than you might think. As I said, in all those years one failure on a VW. The cars I had always ran. I rebuilt a few carbs over the years, but only once in the time I owned the vehicles (VW needed it but just ran poorly, a '70 Ford also did same thing, the biggest pain was an '80 Honda with that 3bbl Keihin carb).....

I'll have to agree to disagree...
I didn't have a vehicle that didn't have a carb until a few years after high school. I owned a 74 bug and quickly learned they like to eat points. I am not in Australia but I helped my dad restore his 1966 Mustang. He switched from points to a Pertronix ignitor while doing the work. That was 15+ years ago and has worked fine as his daily driver. There have been advances in technology. Would you type a document on a computer or use a typewriter?
 

Lou C

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I will go back to what I said, in the beginning of this discussion....instead of blanket statements such as 'points and carbs are antiquated' yes we all know that, I would tell the boat buyer to go and look on the Merc or Volvo parts website, and CHECK, if critical parts for the electronic ignition and fuel injection are still available. Because sometimes they are NOT. You all assume they will be but that is not always true. If you tell someone 'you are crazy to buy ancient technology' and they go and get an early TBI system, that is no longer supported, well how then have YOU helped them? If you can't get the parts then what good is the better technology?
My simple advice was, get a later model that is newer and likely to be supported for some time to come, or if you don't want to spend that much, go back to a carb because it is obviously still fully supported for anyone who cares to look.

Oh and the Petronix will not work on a dog clutch drive such as a Cobra, unless you change the ESA or wire up a fix with diodes. Same for the Delco EST, you need an ESA module that will work with it.
 

thumpar

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Just because you can't get it from the factory doesn't mean it is not available. There are companies that support them still.

I put a Pertronix on my alpha that was equipped with a dog clutch. It worked fantastically.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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I will go back to what I said, in the beginning of this discussion....instead of blanket statements such as 'points and carbs are antiquated' yes we all know that,....

So why are you so vehemently defending them?.... And I was responding to you saying this....

.... I have an old boat with a points n condenser igntion and a Quadrajet and even if I repower it, that's how its going to stay. Much easier, cheaper and faster on the repair end. ....

Which is complete rubbish. Less reliable, more maintenance intensive, more expensive to maintain... And much less efficient....

Chris.......
 

Lou C

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OK buddy you can say what you will, but two of the best I/O mechanics in Long Island, agree with me, I've never been stranded for lack of parts (even with an OMC system from a company that is out of business since 2000) and as I said, total fuel system/ignition system maintenance cost over 12 years of boating is about 300 bucks US. When someone asks what was the earliest model year you could get TBI on an I/O engine, that to me says they are looking at boats that are upwards of 15 years old. Even Merc discontinues parts for models that old. You should know and understand that and advise people properly. This isn't my business, its only a hobby and I know that full well having owned an OMC. Even Chrysler/Jeep discontinues parts for their older models when they reach that age. Then, you are stuck with aftermarket stuff, and have to figure out which ones are good and which ones are not. I looked at some parts listings for Mercs in that age range and guess what, some of the parts for fuel systems are NLA.....
I am defending them, for the very simple easily understood reason, that they can more easily be repaired in the field. Its the same with outboards today. You have an ETec, anyone other than a certified BRP shop can't really work on them. They don't have the equipment. If you had a carbed outboard, those can always be repaired.
 

Walt T

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I'm an old fart, smell like one too. I started out working on the old school points and carburetors and learned how to keep them running in tip top condition. I then learned the new systems when the came online and started showing up in the shops. I can truthfully say those old school systems came back for adjustments and tune ups way more frequently than the new systems now. I am talking automotive and that technology is light years ahead of marine. I can see the point of view in marine as the EFI systems really aren't as good as automotive. I have a carb on my old boat and electronic ignition. I definitely prefer the electronic ignition. I do love the new technology, but currently I have turn key starts and excellent drive-ability with the Holley. I would love to try out a Holley projection. I think the main issue is being able to do one's own repairs on a boat in the driveway or out on the water. EFI can make that impossible if the owner doesn't have the equipment. For me and other established mechanics who understand these systems EFI is awesome. For the folks who just want to go boating in their scarce spare time EFI can be cost prohibitive, but the reliability has come a long way since the early development years. I for one do not miss the old carb and points systems. They are fine, but EFI is way better.
 

achris

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... and as I said, total fuel system/ignition system maintenance cost over 12 years of boating is about 300 bucks US. ....

And mine in 8 years has been $49... And no time expended on replacing points, setting the gap and timing the engine, adjusting the fuel mixtures and idle speed settings, what you'd call "tuning the engine", because the ECU does it for me, 100 times a second!

Chris...
 

Lou C

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Since I can't compare a 15+ year old boat with TBI or EFI to my boat, then I'll compare my 98 Jeep with EFI to it...it ran perfect till about 12 years old and 140,000 miles. Then started the random stalling common to older Jeeps. No codes set. You check all the sensors, you check every connection, all the grounds, batt clamps etc first. By a process of elimination you get to the ECU. Now, there is a big debate in Jeep forums about OE vs aftermarket. Consensus is if you want a trouble free install go with OE. So that is what I did. Price from the dealer for the ECU was a bit over 600 US, installed. They have to flash it with their ChryCo supercomuter so you can't really do it yourself like you can on the older pre OBD-II models. . So there you have it, 2x the cost of my carbed boat. And my Jeep has been better than some of them, still on the original fuel pump. Many have had failures of those and they are about 400 at a dealer if you can't do it yourself.

The tune up on my 07 WK Hemi I referred to I did myself. Not really hard, but some wiring and fuse boxes are in the way.
BTW the last carbed car my family owned was a 1975 Olds Delta 88 5.7 4bbl Quadrajet. They had that car till 1989 (14 years) and it never needed a carb rebuild. Just tune ups and an GM HEI module.

I have 9 small engines around my property, lawn maintenance stuff, snow blower generator, etc. Four and two stroke. Some of them are over 20 years old. I've only had to take apart the carbs on the snow blower and the leaf blower, once. To blow out jets and then they ran fine. I have a Briggs 3.5 hp lawn mower that's 27 years old the carb has never been off, never. This is also using E-10 gas which we know attracts moisture.

I don't disagree with you at all that EFI engines are easier to start, run more consistently and need less maintenance. There is no debate about that. Where there is a difference is in ease of repair and parts cost. Sometimes, if the specific parts used in marine EFI systems get discontinued then you are out of luck. That's why I advised the OP not to get the first few years of TBI, simple parts availability.

If you follow threads on www.thehulltruth.com you will see that the new high tech outboards are not without their problems. Four stroke or high pressure direct injection 2 strokes. These include a greater sensitivity to ethanol fuel (Yamaha especially), random electronic faults and very high parts cost for ECUs and fuel pumps as well as injectors and high pressure pumps on Etecs and Optimaxes. There is no free lunch. High tech is great but you do pay for it sooner or later.

PS I noticed you never commented on the threads I Iinked to problems with Volvo fuel pumps on EFI boats, or the repair cost suffered by a guy in Australia with an EFI Merc. Why is that, is it so hard to admit, that I have a valid point?
 
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achris

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Since I can't compare a 15+ year old boat with TBI or EFI to my boat, then I'll compare my 98 Jeep with EFI to it...it ran perfect till about 12 years old and 140,000 miles. Then started the random stalling common to older Jeeps. No codes set. You check all the sensors, you check every connection, all the grounds, batt clamps etc first. By a process of elimination you get to the ECU. Now, there is a big debate in Jeep forums about OE vs aftermarket. Consensus is if you want a trouble free install go with OE. So that is what I did. Price from the dealer for the ECU was a bit over 600 US, installed. They have to flash it with their ChryCo supercomuter so you can't really do it yourself like you can on the older pre OBD-II models. . So there you have it, 2x the cost of my carbed boat. And my Jeep has been better than some of them, still on the original fuel pump. Many have had failures of those and they are about 400 at a dealer if you can't do it yourself.The tune up on my 07 WK Hemi I referred to I did myself. Not really hard, but some wiring and fuse boxes are in the way.
BTW the last carbed car my family owned was a 1975 Olds Delta 88 5.7 4bbl Quadrajet. They had that car till 1989 (14 years) and it never needed a carb rebuild. Just tune ups and an GM HEI module.

I have 9 small engines around my property, lawn maintenance stuff, snow blower generator, etc. Four and two stroke. Some of them are over 20 years old. I've only had to take apart the carbs on the snow blower and the leaf blower, once. To blow out jets and then they ran fine. I have a Briggs 3.5 hp lawn mower that's 27 years old the carb has never been off, never. This is also using E-10 gas which we know attracts moisture.

You can't compare automotive and marine, completely different fish... And Jeep's reputation here isn't worth a dirty dish rag...

All you have is your own boat and cars... I work on these things for a living, I have MANY boats to draw experience from..

Lou C said:
I don't disagree with you at all that EFI engines are easier to start, run more consistently and need less maintenance. There is no debate about that. Where there is a difference is in ease of repair and parts cost. Sometimes, if the specific parts used in marine EFI systems get discontinued then you are out of luck. That's why I advised the OP not to get the first few years of TBI, simple parts availability.

If you follow threads on www.thehulltruth.com you will see that the new high tech outboards are not without their problems. Four stroke or high pressure direct injection 2 strokes. These include a greater sensitivity to ethanol fuel (Yamaha especially), random electronic faults and very high parts cost for ECUs and fuel pumps as well as injectors and high pressure pumps on Etecs and Optimaxes. There is no free lunch. High tech is great but you do pay for it sooner or later.

PS I noticed you never commented on the threads I Iinked to problems with Volvo fuel pumps on EFI boats, or the repair cost suffered by a guy in Australia with an EFI Merc. Why is that, is it so hard to admit, that I have a valid point?

I did comment. I said for every problem on an MPI engine, I'll show you 10 threads for engines with points that start with "I can't start my engine"....

And using Australia as a price example is not valid. We all know that consumers there are ripped off blind if they buy their parts locally. (Australian price for a US $39 composite timing cover - $350) He needed to do what I do, just buy them straight from the states and avoid the "Australia tax"....

I think we should end this now... You are never going to convince me that points and carbs are better, more reliable, cheaper or more efficient than MPI :facepalm:, and I'll never get you to see reason.... That said, I think I'll just bow out now, and let the rest of the membership, some of whom agree with me (yet I see not one reply in the favour of points and crabs) read all this once it reaches 'archive' status (90 days).... May I respectfully suggest you do the same.

Cheers...
 

Watermann

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Yeah well Lou will be out boating after a nuclear EM pulse while you guys are all sitting at the dock! :lol:
 

thumpar

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Yeah well Lou will be out boating after a nuclear EM pulse while you guys are all sitting at the dock! :lol:
Just because it has a carb doesn't mean there are not electronics that run spark. I know Merc had the Thunderbolt in the late 80's.
 

achris

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If there is a nuclear EM pulse, I think the very last thing anybody will be thinking is, "Gee, I'm so glad I have points on my boat engine"... :facepalm:
 

Lou C

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Well I recall reading something funny that happened to the first English Ford cop cars with EFI. The ECM was not shielded well enough and the engines would shut off, every time they drove under high tension wires! Of course they figured that out pretty fast.

On a more serious note, I recall having a discussion with neighbors of what we would do (right after the 911 attacks, we are 35 miles east of NYC) if something really bad happened. There is no way to get off Long Island in any kind of an emergency such as that. So I told my wife, its 12 NM to the Connecticut coast, we're keeping the boat full, and haulin' ass north if the worst happens!! Straight across LI Sound, we could get there in about 45 min. In fact on that day, the biggest boat lift in history took place, over a half million people were evacuated from lower Manhattan by boat, even more than in Dunkirk in WWII....
 
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