Electronic Ignition

[BigManDan72]

I took my old boat out to the river last week and she wouldn't start (MerCruiser 488 if you're interested). After trying for quite some time and being convinced that the motor wasn't simply flooded I pulled her out of the water and towed her to a nearby boat service shop. The guy I talked to looked into it and determined that I wasn't getting energy from the ingnition system. He further explained that the boat had been retrofitted with an electronic ignition system. He told me that electronic ignition conversion kits are known to be unreliable and he convinced me to convert back to a conventional ignition system. I'm wondering now if I've gotten good advice and if I've made the right decision. The work is underway so I don't have the opportunity to change my mind but I'm wondering what you guys think about this.

 

[thumpar]

What unit is in it? My dad has had a Pertronix in his 66 mustang for about 20 years now and it is his daily driver. I put one in my old boat and ran it for 6 years before I sold it. I saw the boat on the lake not too long ago going strong.

 

[BigManDan72]

What unit is in it?

I honestly don't know and even if I could climb into the boat right now I'm not sure how I'd determine what type of kit was used.

 

[Blind Date]

No way I would have pulled out an electronic ignition and put a points/condensor system back in. That's some really bad advice. Your mechanic couldn't recommend a good electronic ignition kit to put in your boat? My dad and a good friend both converted the 3.0 MerCruisers in their boats from points to an electronic ignition and both said the engine noticeably started, idled, and ran better. If I owned an older boat with points one of the first things I would do is get rid of that junk and put an electronic ignition in it.

 

[gm280]

I'm not so sure points are all that bad. I hear and read near daily on these forums of electronic ignition systems failing and the difficult troubleshooting it take to try and determine what part failed. But with a simple points system, you can buy points and condenser really cheap and happy boating. I too thought about upgrading to an electronic system, but I haven't convinced myself that is the better choice some times. JMHO!

 

[bruceb58]

Personally, I think it was good advice.

 

[Scott Danforth]

I have had pertronix units fail on me. in fact, their instructions used to indicate to keep the points in the glovebox as spares. I have had the condensor die and arc the points, the trigger module die on a TB5 unit and the ignition module die on my Mallory.

I keep the towing insurance paid up to date.

the point is (to quote Captain Ron) " If something is going to happen, it will happen out there"

 

[smokeonthewater]

Nothing in the world wrong with a points ignition system... Cheap simple and more reliable than any electronic system...

If the pertronics system ran better it was because the points hadn't been maintained...

The one advantage (but also a disadvantage) of the electronic conversion is being maintenance free.... The points must be periodically cleaned and adjusted... The electronic system either works or doesn't. If points have an issue usually fiddling w em for a couple minutes will get you underway and even replacement is quick with $5 of spare parts on hand.... If the pertronics system fails, call for a tow or swap on a set of points.

 

[S.A. Baker]

I'll take a points system any day over electronic. Easier to diagnose, easier to fix, cheaper to fix.....and I've never been stranded by a points system! Always a way to get a points system repaired good enough to get home. Retired after 42 yrs. as a tech in the powersports business. Yes....I agree with the mechanics assessment. Aftermarket electronic ignition conversions have a high failure rate. Guess where all the components are made?

 

[smokeonthewater]

Cheenay!

 

[JimS123]

I do most of my own maintenance, but have my mechanic come in about every 5 years, to go over things just to have a second eye.

After reading about Pertronics I asked his opinion. He said they were fantastic and he never had to replace a defective unit. Further, he uses them on his own personal boats. So, I switched. Boy what an improvement. With only a 6 month season, the points always needed to be serviced every Spring. Now, virtually no more maintenance.

After reading about all the problems with them on this site, I bought a new set and replaced the old unit. It had been in service for 15 years. At my mechanics dismay I might add....LOL. He chastised me for changing the original unit.

Anywhoot, now my "spare" isn't a set of points, but rather a good Pertronics.

Boy I hate points. If they were so good Chevy would still be using them...

 

[Blind Date]

"Nothing in the world wrong with a points ignition system... Cheap simple and more reliable than any electronic system..."

How do you figure that it is more reliable? Because of your anecdotal experience? For all you know it was something simple like a loose wire and his ace mechanic just pulled out a perfectly good electronic ignition system. Should I rip the EFI system out of my SeaRay and go back to a carb the first time it gives me trouble? How many people build newer engines for old boats or cars without upgrading to a better performing electronic ignition system? Why did the previous owner chuck the points system if it was so great? Sorry but my advice to the OP is to never take his boat back to that mechanic again. He sucks!

 

[S.A. Baker]

Spend a few decades actually in the "pits". Your reasoning will change! Most of the reason for changing reliable points ignition systems to electronic systems was due to the government sticking their noses into everything! EPA,etc. otherwise GM and others probably still WOULD use points systems! The switch to electronic sure took away a lot of side business doing tune-ups on the weekend! ....no one ever kept up maintainence until they ran like crap! New points and proper timing ....,,she ran GREAT again....and you were a God!......I currently have four collector Mopars still running points ignition. Yes you have to stay on top of tune- ups...especially the dual point distributors. But it dosen't take hours of diagnostics and a sh**pile of cash to keep them sparking!

 

[bruceb58]

If they were so good Chevy would still be using them...

They also don't use Pertronix. If the boat had a Chevrolet engine in it and he was ripping out a Delco EST ignition system I would be giving different advice. Sorry, but Pertronix is not reliable. I had a few engines with points and I never switched them out in favor of Pertronix.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Points are more reliable because there are fewer ways for them to fail... They are simpler... Of course you shouldn't remove your efi system and I wouldn't either because it's nice to have... That said, if I were going to make a journey where a breakdown I couldn't fix likely meant death... Maybe a couple hundred miles through a remote jungle or desert, I'd much prefer a carbed vehicle with points over something with multiple electronic systems....

I have been stranded many times by bad sensors, modules, ecm's etc but have never been stranded by a carb or points system...
Anecdotal.... Blah blah blah whatever you say, as I said there's nothing wrong with a set of points....

The points on my bobcat haven't been touched in at least 10 years... I am currently overhauling the engine because it is worn out after more than 35 years of service tho the ignition system was still working perfectly... Just pulled the distributor apart last week and the points are still clean and gapped perfectly...

A pertronics system is also just fine and I've had several... I only had one fail on me... Have a friend who had two fail within a week but can't say why they failed... May have been his fault.

My point is that both systems work.... Points weren't phased out due to reliability issues... More than anything the move to all electronic engine management is driven by EPA requirements. After all mechanical timing advance has also been phased out but nobody's jumping up and down claiming that centripetal force no longer works... Lol

 

[RGrew176]

This past August I purchased a 1981 Carver 3007 Aft Cabin. I spoke with the mechanic at the marina where I am berthed and he said he would refuse to put in an electronic system on the 270 Crusaders that power the boat. I went and spoke to a mechanic at the marina where I kept my last 3 boats and he said yes, you could put in an electronic ignition system but you have to make sure it is one designed for the Crusaders. I have not decided which way I will go yet. For now I will stay with the conventional system.

 

[gm280]

Interesting reads in these comments. Almost as good as what is the best oil. The progression from points to electronic ignition was interesting to see. Points were prone to burn because of the current they had to work at. Then somebody had a great idea to remove the current off the points and use a power transistor to absorb that current. The points then were merely a trigger switch for the transistor do the work.That was the first generation of electronic ignition.

And then somebody else had an idea that they could raise the spark coil's input voltage to get a higher more powerful spark output. But to do that, the 12VDC had to be chopped or pulsed to work across a setup transformer. And the first power transistor oscillators came into the pictures. But they were still using a mechanical point to switch things. There had to be a better way.

So they then got the idea that a hall effect switch would replace the points. And WALA reluctors and pickup coils made their appearance on the market. Then they decided that using a capacitor to charge and discharge would allow for even higher voltage AND current to the plugs. And the CDI system as invented/designed. I do remember designing AND building a lot of CDI systems back in the days. What can I say...

And of course many variations and versions with multiple sparks and goodies like that showed up. Ignition is still evolving and who knows what will show up next. However, as newer, more complex ideas came about, more electronic parts were used. And like anything else, the more parts, the higher the failure rates can be. Simple common logic!

So use what you like, be it a mere simple point/condenser system, or more complex electronic ignition systems, and happy boating. JMHO!

 

[Chris1956]

Gee, you guys miss the point. Engine manufacturers are driven by low cost. They will always choose the lowest cost component that gives good enough reliability. They would perform a cost/benefit analysis to determine the way to proceed.

This cost/benefit tradeoff model likely involves advertising cost and features, economy of manufacturing scale, inventory on hand and other custom factors. For example, if the OEM can buy a bunch of 3.0 motors cheap, since (for example) GM is closing out the product, that will tend to convince them to continue equipping their low-end boats with those cheap units.

To be clear, 3.0L Mercruisers were the lowest cost engine option, and part of that was the cheap ign system. Mercury used Mercruiser-specific electronic ign systems in their V6/V8 motors long before that converted the 3.0 to it. I would think that the V6/V8 models were converted first because the market would bear enough cost for these optional engines to offset the extra cost of the electronic ignition.

So saying a points/coil ignition is the best is incorrect. It is the cheapest, however, electronic ignitions are far superior, and as reliable as they need to be. Of course, electronic ignitions made for autos are probably not suitable. Marine ignition systems are usually potted with epoxy to make them Marine-grade. If it were me, I would either convert the points/coil ignition to an aftermarket marine-grade ignition or keep it stock, based upon the cost and how long I would keep the boat.

 

[Blind Date]

"They also don't use Pertronix. If the boat had a Chevrolet engine in it and he was ripping out a Delco EST ignition system I would be giving different advice. Sorry, but Pertronix is not reliable. I had a few engines with points and I never switched them out in favor of Pertronix."

That makes sense. Seems people posting here have a problem with the reliability of the Pertronix system, not electronic ignition systems in general. Honestly though, that's your only option for getting rid of the original points. No one else makes something worth buying?

 

[smokeonthewater]

True the oem electronic stuff is WAY better than pertronix stuff...

The biggest point I was making tho is that a points system isn't bad...
When I said it was more reliable than an electronic system I didn't mean that electronics were horrible... Where the points would rate I'd say about 99% reliable I'd give oem electronics about 95% and and aftermarket about 85%.... No hard math here, just some quick numbers off the top of my head to illustrate my thoughts.

My latest boat has thunderbolt IV ign and I'm just fine with it tho if it fails it'll be hundreds of dollars to fix vs $10 if it had points.