Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

[FirstOutboard]

Hi there,
I just replaced my impeller on my 1972 Mercury 50hp (500, Thunderbolt ignition). And now I do not get any water coming out of the phole. I have:

Starting from the lower housing - worked my way up -

• Ensured there is no blockage of water to the water pump
• Ensured that the waterpump gaskets are good, clean seal
• Ensured that the water can go up and thru the water discharge pipe (I ran a hose thru it - it comes out the phole)
• Ensured that it is clear thru the engine block - able to run water thru it using a hose
• Ensured that the phole is unobstructed

I can no longer fathom what is going on. Two thoughts I had - and if anyone could validate these I'd appreciate it. :
1. I know for sure that I incidentally spun the prop counterclockwise when replacing the water pump. Could this really screw up the gear in the lower housing? And therefore the pump is running backwards or something? And if so - what do I need to do to resolve it?
2. I need to place more pressure on the water discharge pipe - add a washer to where it meets the water pump housing, in order to 'push' the pipe further and ensure a very tight fit.
3. Should water go thru the phole when the boat motor is in reverse?

I have logically thought of what I could, have reviewed my service manual to no avail.

I am in dire help, please!

Thank you,
Waterbug - my first outboard by the way.

 

[CV16]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

The first thing I would do is take it back apart and make sure you put the little key thing in the new impeller. Also, if the water pump housing is scratched, it may not pump either.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

There is nomally a seal in the water discharge place on the water pump cover. Make sure you use the plastic water tube guide to make sure the water tube seats properly.

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Hi there,

Answering the feedback:
First, thank you for the help! Much needed.

The key is solid and in place.
I wiped clean and took a very close look at all of the water pump components to see if there were any scratches, holes, cracks, dirt, etc.. to ensure no air, pressure or water loss. Now I 'believe' I looked close enough.

One thing I have noticed - the water outlet pipe - the copper pipe that goes from the top of the pump to the powerhead is loose. I placed a house waterhose at the bottom of that pipe and I noticed that I had to really push the hose - which pushed the pipe up further into the powerhead. Now I suspect that it's actually that water outlet pipe at the powerhead.

I am now having a problem finding any marine service place which will even LOOK AT this 1972 Mercury. They say it's way too old for them to look at. Also, trying go find parts for this is a challenge - I can find the skematics but I can't find the parts for sale - which I believe I need some gasket or something - whatever is at the top of this pipe.

So this is where I am at with this.

If I can get an opinion on what you think about how hard it is to remove the powerhead and do this myself, I'd appreciate it. I'd consider myself pretty mechanical but just have never worked on an outboard before.

And if anyone can recommend a particular website which old mercury parts are located, please let me know.

Thank you very much.

 

[Moody Blue]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Are you running the motor on muffs or IN the water.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

The parts you will likely need are standard seals and are avail. You probably need to take the powerhead off and replace the watertube seal and inspect the water tube. crowleymarine and dougrussell are two good places for OEM parts

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Hi - replies: And thank you again for your feedback as I continue to pound my head to figure this out.
updates:

I am running it both with muffs and also in a garbage can full of water. I prefer the garbage can.

I purchased some clear tubing - 5/8 OD, 3/8 ID and placed it at the base of the tube where it meets the waterpump to create a seal, to no avail.

I know the path is clear - from the lower housing to the phole - as I placed a high pressure water hose at the base of the outlet tube and the water comes out of the phole. But then again, it's probably because of the high pressure of water in the hose I'm using.

The impeller housing appears to be absolutely clean, without any major scratches or holes, etc.. It appears as solid as can be.

I squirted water backwards, from the phole down thru the engine. Started it and 'none' came back out!

The very strange part of all of this is the absolute low or even 'missing' air pressure that comes out of the hose just before the phole. I placed a small clear plastic bag on it (tied it tight) to see how the air pressure would react and to capture 'anything' that comes out - when I started the engine and it just literally did nothing.

I'm going to go back out there now and re-look at the seal where I'm using the clear plastic tubing just to see what I can try a bit differently. It's a challenge not having a marine shop store around to ask and try some parts for sure!

Thank you for the mentioned stores to try for parts for this motor. I will seek them out to see what they have to say and can obtain if needed.

Thanks again and please continue the thoughts as I will try anything. I'm due to get the boat in the water and fishing by June 25th when our family vacation starts.

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Picture attached -

Here is my waterpump with the housing off for reference. If I have the impellers backwards or someone wrong - pls let me know!

I installed it when the motor was in neutral.

I am now wondering if I have the gear ramp/thing wrong - which is the 2" black circle thing that has a ramp which the gear shift follows up and down. I guess I'm wondering if somehow the drive shaft is going counterclockwise which would then not make the impeller work at all?

Right now, if I rotate the gear ramp, until it clicks and I can then turn the prop clockwise - the drive shaft goes clockwise. This seems to be counter-productive as it then appears to PUSH the water AWAY from the discharge pipe. It almost seems that I have some gear or something backwards?

And when I run it in neutral - I guess I'm assuming that the driveshaft runs clockwise? I will investigate further on this. I also plan on removing the flush screw to see if water is pouring out. I saw this plug there and just didn't even think to remove that to see if water is running out of it when running. This should provide a major clue.

 

[Moody Blue]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Unless your photo`s are staged just to show the impeller orientation, you are missing an important component(s). The stainless lower wear plate (and gaskets) is not present. Could explain all your problems.

In order of assy from the gear casing up, there should be a gasket, lower pump housing (with seals and o-ring), gasket, stainless wear plate, gasket, impeller (with drive key), upper pump housing.

Will the copper water tube remain engaged in the seal at the base of the powerhead or does it fall out when installed by itself.

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

I think I have your answer. The wearplate is missing. It needs to be installed under the impeller. The stainless wearplate needs a gasket on each side and should be on top of the pump base and under the impeller. Look at an exploded parts diaghram like this.

http://www.crowleymarine.com/mercury-outboard/parts/449_19.cfm
You are missing parts 19-20-21. All are avail aftermarket.

 

[Beaches of Cheyenne]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Hello, Your impeller is not backwards. The drive shaft always turns clockwise, in forward reverse or neutral. Without the Lower Unit on the intake brass tube is supposed to be a little loose as it seats into the underside of the powerhead into a rubber grommet. That part sounds normal in my opinion.

I have a 1977 500/50 I'm having a very similar problem with. I was going start my own thread but thought maybe we could help each other out or add our clues together for someone else to help us both. I don't want to hijack your thread, it just sounds like we may have the same problem.

When I attach a hose directly to the water intake tube I get a similar result at high pressure, water out of the tell tale or "Phole". However, at low pressure water doesn't make it to tell tale. Water runs back down the inside of the drive shaft housing. It's coming from just under the powerhead on the port side. The path of least resistance. I first noticed it when listening closely while using compressed air. Is this normal or is there a cracked water jacket or something up in there? Is water supposed to come from this area at all as some type of overflow or is this indeed a problem?

That's where I gave up last night and went to bed but another clue. To me it seems like there is some obstruction, old impeller pieces possibly, in the power head. I read that main water jackets are accessible behind the spark plug cover plate. Do want to try that, low pressure into the intake tube, and see if you get the same result?

I'm with you in the frustration, believe me. Back to garage and will report back with anything I find that could be helpful.

 

[Beaches of Cheyenne]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Ah yes, no wear plate. I didn't even notice that, good eye. Hopefully you'll have an easy fix and be on the water soon. Good luck

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

View attachment 149978

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

To answer Moody Blues's question - I had tried to snug out the tube - gently but with a little force, to see if it would pull down. After what I believe is enough pressure, it does NOT come out by pulling it downward. After checking the service manual, it appears that it's one that is designed to drop down from the top, and it has a little ring or something at the top to keep it from being pulled out from the bottom. Thank you!

Also - I have a freezer with a couple of bags of perch from Simcoe! A friend of mine went fishing there and gave me some perch! Good stuff!!!

 

[Moody Blue]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Simcoe perch are great eating for sure, especially the ones caught on the hard water.

Not sure if the 50 is the same as my 80 (same vintage) but the water tube in mine just pulls down and out. It's nothing more than a piece of 1/2" copper pipe. There is a rubber grommet inside the receiving flange up under the powerhead. If the grommet is in good shape, it will retain the water tube in place but it can be pulled out by twisting it to break the seal then pulling it down and out. I always rub a little silicone grease on the water tube before inserting it up into the powerhead.

I've posted a few photos for you to help you understand where the problem might be ..... or not.



This shows the adapter plate/exhaust flange that sits between the powerhead and the midsection of the motor. The first two photos show the adapter plate pulled from the midsection. They show where the water tube attaches (top center 1st photo, bottom center 2nd photo). The 3rd photo shows the adapter plate installed in the midsection. Again you can see where the water tube would connect (dead center of the photo) and the water passages from the water tube to the powerhead. The large cavity at the top of the third photo is the exhaust port where the exhaust gasses mix with the cooling water and are ejected down the exhaust tube and out the motor thru the prop hub.

From your description of where you are seeing the water exit, I would say you have a bad gasket between the powerhead and the adapter plate and/or corrosion has eaten away some of the metal leaving a hole. It's also possible that the casting where the water tube inserts could be cracked.

The telltale is really only there to provide a visual indication that the system is pumping water. You can plug it up without any ill effect on the motor. Have you tied inserting a long length of weed trimmer line WAY up (12-14") into the telltale port? Twist it as you insert it and it will travel a long way.

Another thought. On my motor (4 cyl 80hp) there is a hex brass plug located on the "head" between plugs 2 and 3. If you have the same, remove it then run the motor normally. If the pump is pumping water properly you will see quite a bit of water exit from this open port. This is where you would connect a water pressure gauge etc. Don't run the motor more than minute or so with the plug removed because you are bleeding off the coolant water prematurely.

 

[Moody Blue]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

Something that has not been asked yet. Was the motor pumping water before you changed the impeller? Is the motor new to you?

 

[FirstOutboard]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

THANK YOU FOR THE PHOTOS!!! AND I THINK YOU'VE GOT IT! I have printed the pictures off and am adding to my service manual. Makes sense about the gasket because of the exhaust mixing in with it - that is coming out clearly from the hole.

Extremely interesting what you said about the water tube - that you can break the seal to remove it. It is deceiving because I tried to pull it - and twist it to assist it coming out - but it just would not come out. I didn't want to damage the copper pipe as i as using a crescent wrench with a cloth on the teeth to pull it out. It just would not come out. But I didn't pursue any further. After visually inspecting up the tube with the flashlight I came to the conclusino that it was not leaking from there - at least not at the bottom - so I held off on that at the time.

The question about the hex bolt - I do not see a bolt there between the plugs on my engine. To check the pressure from the tube - I tied just a little clear bag on the end just to see if it inflated/deflated/ did anything at all - which it did not besides the poof of the exhaust when it was there.

I did insert a weedwacker string up into the pipe, into the head, it is a heavier gauge and went in a decent amount - I was surprised at how far. I did twist it to feed it further and futher up. I marked and cut the legnth and have it for reference. I need to measure to see exactually but I'm sure it went to the powerhead. That was kinda scary because I thought it may break off but like you said - it actually went in there pretty easily so that was good.

This motor IS new to me. I have never had an outboard (nor owned an inboard). I just wanted an inland lake boat for me and my son to go fishing off of - to get 'off the shore' for once - and we bought this. Before we bought it they started it up with muffs on and little spits of water came out. They said just needs a new 'impeller'. I went home, looked on YouTube how to replace and thought 'no problem'. I then bought the boat. Replaced the impeller and found that I believe that the water spits were either rigged or left over water from the winterization that happen to have fallen out. I bought the service manual and have pictured and identified all parts of my engine that I can see and have a few more things that need to be done for sure. But obviously this is the biggest part right now. I called every dealership and 'special marine service' places for help and no one will touch it. I even found a 'last chance garage' and they even balked at it. This is the Great Lakes State for goodness sakes! Severly disappointed to say the least! But it's at the point where I just need to go beyond just the outside stuff and dig deep. My fear is that I break other things in the meantime but I've gotta dig deep at this point. It'll either work or it won't and I'd rather just know where I stand and get it done. I'm not against work don't get me wrong.

As of yesterday, I began to take the engine apart in an attempt to get the powerhead off. I'm at best ok-mechanically inclined but that's if I remember where everything goes. (I've already lost one damn nut!). I've got it all set and have begun to remove screws and the easy things right now. It's scary because there are many fragile parts due to wear and age. I've got my bowls for the bolts and screws and marking things as I go along. It's all just parts and I just need to be consistent and keep at it until I get that thing off and come to this plate. Then track down the gasket and I think that'll do it!!! I am hoping to have it pulled off by this Friday. Weather here is good and I'll be able to work on it after work and all. I will post what I find. I am VERY EXCITED to see this is not a 'cracked head' issue which from what I understand would be the final nail in that engine coffin! VERY EXCITED!!!! THERE IS HOPE!!!! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! I WILL UPDATE!!!!!!

 

[Moody Blue]

Re: Merc-no water from phole but have done EVERYTHING already posted

To be clear, the water you are seeing is as you said "pouring out" of the area adjacent to the water inlet to the powerhead, basically into the driveshaft cavity? You are not seeing water exiting thru the exhaust tube?

When you were running the motor in the bucket, how long did you wait for water out of the telltale?

As you are taking thinks apart, take lots of photos as you go and place parts into ziplock baggies and label them. You are going to end up with ALOT of hardware that will all look the same a few days from now.