Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

[capslock118]

Hi there,

1990 135hp v6 black max

I trimmed the engine up, then i trimmed it down to remove the cover so I can do a glance over of the inside to check something. As I went to trim up again, about 10 minutes later, neither the up nor down buttons work.

I can hear the trim solenoid making a clicking noise every time I hit the down and up buttons.

This should not be a battery issue. Battery is fully charged and the boat just ran fine.

What do you think it is OR what should I diagnose first? I intend to follow the OEM service manual to troubleshoot but if this sounds familiar to you, any information you can provide would be terrific.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

A lot of engines pull the high amp positive off of starter and then feed it through a circuit breaker. If the circuit breaker pops you can hear clicking but not get any power to trim motor.

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Alright,

I opened the coweling and broke out my OEM service manual. I studied the wiring diagram and matched it to the respective wires on the engine.

I have three points to mention:
1) I noticed a red wire wired up directly from the starter to the I believe down solenoid. I think this is what you are referring to however the wiring diagram makes no mention of this wire so I am scratching my head on this one

2) Once I finished matching the wires to the wiring diagram I pressed the up button on the trim and waited a second. Magically, the trim started to work again. Very very slow, sluggish, and it sounded as if the battery was dead sort of start, but then once it got going it sounded perfect. It is now working again.

3) With point 2, I notice that when the engine runs the battery is getting 'charged' up to 16 volts. I noticed in the OEM service manual that this indicates (almost without question) the voltage regulator is bad and needs to be replaced. If this is true, would this somehow relate to the trim functioning poorly?

any other thoughts you may have would be appreciated

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

if you do not have a healthy charge then your trim won't work very well. By the time your starter starts clicking from a weak battery your trim should have already stopped lifting.

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Well, I wonder if the health of the battery charge is really at question here; It's a brand new battery.

Unless the engine is over charging the battery and that is making the battery somewhat dead...

Which I guess if that's the case would bring me back to the voltage regulator.

How about this, aside for noticing the battery at 16v when the engine is running, is there other tests I can do to check the voltage regulator?

 

[emckelvy]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Check your battery connections, make sure the terminals are scrupulously clean and also wire-brush the pos and neg cable lugs. Make sure the wingnuts/bolts are tight, too.

A sure sign you've got an issue at the terminals is a hot connection. That means there's a high resistance and the current flowing thru the connection creates heat.

It's also very common for the newer, small-sized solenoids to go bad. The contacts arc inside until they won't conduct electricity. Then they just 'click' as you described.

You can jump across the (2) large terminals on each solenoid to check this. Just watch out for sparks! If the trim motor runs smartly when you jump the solenoid, you've got a high-resistance contact inside the solenoid and it should be replaced.

16V is a bit on the high side, how sure are you of the accuracy of your meter or dash gage?

Normal spec for any just about any alternator-equipped rig is 13.5-15.5V, so 16 is just ever-so-slightly out of spec. Does voltage rise above 16 while you're underway, or is that the highest you've seen regardless of engine speed?

At any rate, if it's making problems with the battery or any electronic instrumentation you might consider replacing the rectifier/reg assy. They are quite expensive, though. You can probably get a better deal aftermarket, using CDI brand replacements. Or check eBay.

Note that early 135's used the old-style 3-terminal rectifier and a separately-mounted voltage regulator. This reg is about $200 itself. Later model motors (including I-3's and I-4's) used an upgraded rectifier/regulator assy and this can be retrofitted to older motors. These rec/rect assy's are a lot more common and work pretty good in a retrofit. Also a good mod for older, unregulated motors.

The 883072T2 regulator/rectifier assy at around $176 retail is cheaper than any of the older separate V. reg's.

The iBoats Store has a heck of a deal on the Sierra Marine aftermarket equivalent of this, for $100.79:

http://www.iboats.com/Voltage-Regul...5373417--**********.910911629--view_id.174789

Seems pretty cheap, you might check around but likely won't find a better price except maybe eBay.

Anyway, if you're checking voltage by dash gage, maybe not so accurate. A meter would be better. Of course if you've got a deph-finder or other electronics with built-in voltmeter, that's probably accurate enough.

HTH & keep us posted............ed

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Well, I wonder if the health of the battery charge is really at question here; It's a brand new battery.

Unless the engine is over charging the battery and that is making the battery somewhat dead...

Which I guess if that's the case would bring me back to the voltage regulator.

How about this, aside for noticing the battery at 16v when the engine is running, is there other tests I can do to check the voltage regulator?

Over-charging is over-rated. Most outboards don't put out that much juice and the engine actually alternates between running off battery and stator depending upon RPM. Charging is more like a slow motion pulse modulation than a sustained voltage. Mercury is not known for having great stators. If you read that much idle voltage at battery terminals then I think you might have a bad connection and you are getting a false high due to terminal resistance.

that would also cause changes in trim motor speeds along with sluggish starting.

if you put perfectly healthy juice into a trim motor and it starts off sluggish as you describe then you have a problem with the motor. The hydraulic pressure is lowest at bottom of trim and therefore creates the least amount of load on your trim motor. The motor should start fast and slow down as it goes up.

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Hi all,

Ok let's revisit this topic.

Here is what happened today after connecting the battery to the engine for the first time in two weeks...Note that when I had the engine running, I had it running for a good 1/2 hours, 12v in the battery was read from my tester, 14v read from the console:

1) connected battery
2) tried to trim down the engine (it was up all the way for me to work on the lower unit)
3) sluggish moving, it seemed to move a bit better when it was going down but
4) very intermittent, if I took my finger off the trim button, sometimes the trim would work when pressing the button again, other times it wouldn't.
5) got the engine down so that I was able to put muffs on and start the engine to test other things
6) while engine was running trim would not work (clicking sound still occurred)
7) when engine was turned off, trim didnt work (clicking sound still occurred).


Now...here is some fun info:

While the engine was running and I pressed the trim button, I could see the battery charge dial move, indicating to me that power was being drawn to the trim solenoids, but nothing was happening after that.

Earlier this year I added more fluid as I read this should be a maintenance item to do. It seems to me this was around the same time this issue started to occur. I did overfill but I took some out so that there was enough room to put the cap back on.

It *appears* that the left canister is not flush at the seams, I don't know if this is true though. I've appended some pictures below.

Question:
Is is possible to overfill the trim with trim/steering fluid? I used genuine mercury trim/steering fluid.
Is there negative effects when mixing trim/steering fluid? I used genuine mercury trim/steering fluid but I couldn't tell you what was already in the system...

 

[RRitt]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Check your battery connections, make sure the terminals are scrupulously clean and also wire-brush the pos and neg cable lugs. Make sure the wingnuts/bolts are tight, too.

A sure sign you've got an issue at the terminals is a hot connection. That means there's a high resistance and the current flowing thru the connection creates heat.

It's also very common for the newer, small-sized solenoids to go bad. The contacts arc inside until they won't conduct electricity. Then they just 'click' as you described.

You can jump across the (2) large terminals on each solenoid to check this. Just watch out for sparks! If the trim motor runs smartly when you jump the solenoid, you've got a high-resistance contact inside the solenoid and it should be replaced.

16V is a bit on the high side, how sure are you of the accuracy of your meter or dash gage?

Normal spec for any just about any alternator-equipped rig is 13.5-15.5V, so 16 is just ever-so-slightly out of spec. Does voltage rise above 16 while you're underway, or is that the highest you've seen regardless of engine speed?

At any rate, if it's making problems with the battery or any electronic instrumentation you might consider replacing the rectifier/reg assy. They are quite expensive, though. You can probably get a better deal aftermarket, using CDI brand replacements. Or check eBay.

Note that early 135's used the old-style 3-terminal rectifier and a separately-mounted voltage regulator. This reg is about $200 itself. Later model motors (including I-3's and I-4's) used an upgraded rectifier/regulator assy and this can be retrofitted to older motors. These rec/rect assy's are a lot more common and work pretty good in a retrofit. Also a good mod for older, unregulated motors.

The 883072T2 regulator/rectifier assy at around $176 retail is cheaper than any of the older separate V. reg's.

The iBoats Store has a heck of a deal on the Sierra Marine aftermarket equivalent of this, for $100.79:

http://www.iboats.com/Voltage-Regul...5373417--**********.910911629--view_id.174789

Seems pretty cheap, you might check around but likely won't find a better price except maybe eBay.

Anyway, if you're checking voltage by dash gage, maybe not so accurate. A meter would be better. Of course if you've got a deph-finder or other electronics with built-in voltmeter, that's probably accurate enough.

HTH & keep us posted............ed

ugh ugh ugh .. no no no ... the way to mod an old style outboard voltage regulator is to run away from marine dealers and their $2 per roll marine toilet paper. Buy a generic 50A square bridge rectifier from mouser electronics for $3.50. You stator will melt and catch on fire before it can overpower one of those. Then get a $10 generic voltage regulator to fit something like a 65 oldsmobile V8. The old V8 reg can handle more amps than mercury stators can put out but just in case they do malfunction your separate rectifier will keep charging your battery.

Now - as regards your trim system. Do you have a 2w or 3w motor? If it is 3w then check your ground connections. If it is 2w then look for a circuit breaker with reset switch. Once you can turn the page on those two items then use a probe to check for voltage while someone else operates switch. If you work alone then you can hot wire trim motor directly to your riding lawn mower battery or use jumper cables to reach a bigger battery.

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Do you have a 2w or 3w motor?

I am not familiar with this terminology? 2watt or 3watt?

I get the concepts of regulators and rectifiers but I do not know enough about them to confidently just buy any generic item or part for a different engine to be confident it would work.

For instance, I have a 16 amp stator, how would putting in a 60 amp voltage regulator be ok? Is it that the 60 amp regulator can handle UP TO 60 amps, while still put out proper charging voltage to the battery?

Would a different regulator mount at the same mount points? how would one go to retro fit if not?

I did some various electrical tests on the trim/tile per the OEM service manual yesterday. I need to go through them again so I'll post my results shortly after a cup of coffee

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

I know most folks do not like long responses; I like providing as much detail as I know. I tried to consolidate as much as possible below:

If it is 3w then check your ground connections. If it is 2w then look for a circuit breaker with reset switch. Once you can turn the page on those two items then use a probe to check for voltage while someone else operates switch.

I have two fuses, both of which are intact and appear to be operational. I could not locate a reset switch on the engine or in the service manual for my engine / trim.

Testing
I went through voltage testing per the service manuals flowcharts.

Essentially all tests seemed to point to checking ground contacts, testing solenoids, and testing the motor itself with an indication that the motor might be bad.

Interesting tid-bits
I took some sand paper and cleaned up all of the contact points but this didn't resolve the problem.

What I had noticed that seemed interesting was the following:
1) When testing the UP solenoid, it checked out for voltage when pressing the UP button. When pressing the DOWN button the UP solenoid also showed a full voltage reading. I should note that this test was testing the wire leading to the pump (i.e. blue for up, green for down), not the power lead (i.e. red). So in this test case, both solenoids had a voltage reading when either button was pressed.
2) Vice versa for down solenoid
3) In the Service manual when testing the solenoids:

Use an Ohmmeter (Rx1 scale) and connect meter leads...Solenoid should click and meter should read zero ohms (full continuity)...If meter does not read zero ohms (full continuity), replace solenoid.

Continuity for me read .5 after calibrating my tester; this reading was close to 0 but not quite.

Questions
1) Should it make sense that when the down button is pressed that the up reads a voltage and vice versa? With my novice understanding of electronics, this doesn't seem right.

2) Is close to 0 reading for resistance good enough or does the fact that my tester did not read 0 on the solenoids indicate a problem? Being just a simple diy-er, I can't say if the resistance test has to be exact or not.

Just as a side: looks like I will be replacing the regulator regardless. When I went to clean it's contacts, one just ripped right out from corrosion / rust. Great... The rectifier tested fine so I will just be replacing the regulator

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

It doesn't seem that sierra or other manufacturers have an exact replacement to my regulator.

Mercury regulator 88825A 7.

The regulator emckelvy refers to seems close in the part number translation but doesnt look like the regulator I have.

 

[capslock118]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

Anyone have thoughts about the trim/tilt?

I am pretty sure after testing that the trim motor needs to be replaced but, aside from the engine and parts being 20 years old, I can't identify why the motor just died on me, or if it's really dead instead of just being jammed or something... or maybe an electrical connection I've missed in testing.

If the trim motor needs replacing that's fine, but I would just like some outside opinions before undertaking that project.

According to the service manual, to remove the trim equipment for replacement of the motor I need to brace the engine, remove the right transom bracket etc. I would be starting a new thread for that topic If I have to go down that road...


also: I did pick up the OEM regulator, found it on ebay for $115.

 

[reils_99]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

I had the same clicking when trimming up and had to replace the trim up/down switch. May consider looking there with a volt/light. Sorry I can't be more help. I'm a novice...

 

[Fuzzytbay]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

My opinion its one of two things, the pump motor, or the trim switch. I'd disconnect the trim switch, then jumper the wires to mimic the opperation of the switch closing. I suspect you have one power wire and two switchable wires, one for up, the other for down. If the motor works fine by doing this, get a new switch, if the motor acts up, get a new motor. If your trim motor has gotten a burn spot on the comutator,it will act up, in a manner in which your describing. Since there are many segments on the comutator, if it stops in a good spot, it would start up fine, yet if it stoped on a bad segment, then it might not work, since it would need a lot more current to overcome the higher internal resistance. So a weak battery might not get it going. It could also be the brush's in the motor, but I am not sure if these motors are even servicable to change them so.....

 

[reils_99]

Re: Trim motor lost power, I hear the click when pressing the trim buttons though

I had the same clicking when trimming up and had to replace the trim up/down switch. May consider looking there with a volt/light. Sorry I can't be more help. I'm a novice...