'89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

[bassinbill]

engine spit back thru carb,stopped dead. Flywheel<br />key ok, no water in lines or carbs, plugs good,<br />had starter checked, not dragging; Will fire when<br />pulling thru manually, but will not start. Bright <br />blue spark, backfires. Still no spark with ign.<br />switch out of circuit and starter spinning. This <br />is a mariner made by merc. in fon du lac, wis.<br />The coils and the powerpac I don't know how to<br />check. Any ideas? I'd like to hear them. Thanks!

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

My question is disappearing into the long list of <br />the past. Will someone show this greenhorn how to<br />"bumpitup"?

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Hello! Someone bumped up for me. Thanks to whoever helped! Maybe someone will still type<br />some instructions so I won't appear to be such<br />a newbie?

 

[steelespike]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Sounds like the spark has some how gotten out of time Get a manual and check out ignition.

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

steelspike.....<br />My sentiments exactly....manual should arrive any<br />day. In my limited experience I don't know of any<br />way other than a sheared flywheel key that would effect timing. The manual will show me the next<br />step. Thanks for the advice, Any help appreciated!<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

another delay. Local marina sent wrong book. I <br />ordered one from this site. Meanwhile I'm <br />ohming out the coils to see if resistance is <br />about equal, and checking the wires.<br />Good fishing and happy(troublefree) boating!<br />Will post if I find anything pertinent.<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Found nothing that looked out of place ohming the coils and checking the wires. Yet another delay getting a manual, UPS says they delivered, but I still have no manual. Nice lady at the Mega Mall started a trace yesterday to find it if possible. Good boating, gentlemen.<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

OK, finally got a manual. Will start from scratch early AM tomorrow. Thanks to customer service for tracing and getting a replacement manual.<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Work is temporarily suspended on the '89 mariner. My mother had a stroke on the 20th of Sept. and is still in the hospital. Will resume repair as soon as soon as she is out of danger and recovering.<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Looks like it may be a while before I can get back to work on the '89 Mariner, my mother has lost memory and ability to move around. Is there a quick and easy way to get the gas out of the carbs before they shellac up, if they haven't already?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />bassinbill

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Back on track now, my mother is improved enough that I got a chance to continue w/'89 Mariner. I followed directions from manual in troubleshooting the stator, and it did not meet specs on 2 of the resistance measurements, so now I'm looking for a stator, the best price locally is $321.75. If anyone knows where I might find a better price, I would appreciate any input.<br />Thanks!

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

bassinbill <br />Try the link below for the stator: You will need the part number or your engines serial number to order the correct one.<br /> web page

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Also, in the meanwhile, you might want to check out some of these sites that may help checking components out.<br /><br /> dolphinmarine <br /><br /> www.outboardparts.com

 

[almost retired again]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Hello Bassinbill;<br />If you have a bright blue spark while cranking I wouldn't think that there is anything wrong with the stator. The pourpose of the stator is twofold,first it produces the voltage necessary to charge the battery, second it has coils responsible for charging the condenser in the switchbox. Once the condenser is charged then the timer base comes into play by producing a small voltage in it's coils that is sent to the switchbox when and to what plug to send this large condenser voltage to. This is very simplified as to what is happening, but enough to give you an idea.<br />If your engine is back firing it is almost for certain that it is out of time. It could be that the connection from the timer base has come loose, or maybe the flywheel has moved in relation to the crankshaft key. A good way to check the last is to pull the spark plugs, put a pencil in the # 1 hole hold it aginst the piston, turn the flywheel slowly in a CW direction until the pencil indicates that the piston is at TDC.(pushed out the fathest) Then see if the timing pointer aligns close top the TDC mark on the flywheel. If it don't align up then the key is sheared, or the flywheel has somehow moved past it. I have found this to happen twice in the last couple of months on a 70 HP and a 90 HP Johnson. The key should not be parallel with the crankshaft taper, buthorizonal to the crankshaft itself.<br />Hope this helps. Good luck

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Rick and Almost Retired.....<br />I removed flywheel and stator yesterday, the key is good,not even a mark on it. Take a look at the resistance readings on the stator:<br />blu to blu/wht= 13,000 ohms...manual= 5700-8000ohm<br />red to red/wht= 140 ohms......manual= 56-76 ohms<br /><br />The blu to blu/wht readings can vary from 10,000 ohms to as much as 2.1 Meg.ohms, and I made the checks w/three multimeters to confirm it. ??? The bad readings on the red wires aside, there must be also a loose or bad connection inside the stator ring in the blue wires. I might have more than one problem. The resistance measurements seem to indicate a bad stator, since they are out of specs, but I haven't found anything for spark timing other than the key and the spark advance, which, as you know, is tied to the throttle linkage. If either of you can think of anything else, I would welcome the advise!<br />Rick...good link,$135.00 is better than $321.75 !!<br />Almost Retired...I discovered yesterday the spark is on only one cylinder....I'm not sure how that effects the situation.<br />Thanks to you both!

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

Hello again guys....<br />Ordered and received new stator, installed and immediately got fire to all four plugs. Buttoned it up, and she started, ran 5 seconds, died...started again, same thing. Lost all fire,would not restart. Stator appears ok, good resistance readings (same as before installation).I'm beginning to suspect problems in the switchbox, but nothing in manual about it's testing. I rechecked the trigger and the coils, nothing has changed. Can anyone make sense of all this? rickdb1boat? Almost Retired?

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

^bumpitup, please^

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

It's going to be tough to diagnose without more data. <br /><br />The stator you put in has low & high speed coils providing juice to the switchbox. The higher-resistance coils are the low-speed. The low-speed coils provide juice at low rpm, the highs at high rpm. (You also have coils for generating juice for the battery.) <br /><br />My experience is pretty limited, but I've already seen two Mercs with fried low-speed coils, and have 'heard' that they do overheat during normal use. (Betcha the replacement stator you bought has been re-designed for better cooling.) One 4cylinder 50hp Merc had a blue spark at the plugs at least outside the motor, but wouldn't fire the motor at least on the electric starter. Oddly enough, I could get it to fire with the rope. I was on here asking about it a year ago. Took a while to figure out, since it was getting fuel, timing was OK & I thought the spark was OK, would start fine on the rope, but absolutely cold dead on the starter.<br /><br />Anyway, I am wondering if you're timing is OK. You should have a certain timing with the throttle closed, and way more at full throttle. Your manual should have the specs. On my motor, the previous owner had massively screwed up the timing & synch settings, probably in an attempt to fix what was actually a bad stator. You can check the closed-throttle timing, running the electric starter, & get an idea if you're in the ballpark.<br /><br />The only dead certain way to fix it, without throwing parts at it, is to measure the output of the stator coils, and the trigger coils, and the switchbox. To do this, you need what they call a peak-reading voltmeter. An oscilloscope (general-purpose one) is even better, if you have access to one & are familiar with them.<br /><br />There's a "John's Old Mercury" site on the web that has a pretty active & helpful group of Merc specialists - I'd try their discussion group. It could be your switchbox or ? what else. Rapair's catalog (avail at www.rapair.com) has a pretty good section on debugging Merc ignitions.

 

[ledgefinder]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

On re-reading your note, I think I may have steered you wrong. As Rick & Retired said, recommend you check the timing - particularly if this problem all started after a backfire. <br /><br />You can find (approximate) top dead center for cylinder 1 (the top one) by poking a pencil in the spark plug hole. Make sure you only turn the flywheel clockwise (viewed from top), so you don't flip the vanes on your waterpump. Also be careful that the motor doesn't start & catch your fingers. What you're doing is seeing whether the pointer and timing marks on the flywheel are correctly indicating top dead center at zero degrees.

 

[bassinbill]

Re: '89 mariner,4cyl,45hp,no fire while spinning starter

ledgefinder....<br />You're right, the coils on the new CDI stator have open coils for better cooling. The resistance is also different on the new one, some lower and some higher. Just as you, I first suspected timing, so the first test was the tdc test w/ a wooden dowell, as I thought it had sheared the shaft key, but the pointer indicated "0" degrees. On removal of the flywheel, I saw that the key was intact and positioned correctly, so I moved on to the resistance tests, and found the stator failed them, including conductivity to ground where it shouldn't have. I rechecked all the resistance tests (stator, trigger and coils, all check good), but I understand that ohmmeter tests are not very reliable.<br />re: timer base....have yet to find mention of a timer base for this motor in the manual. Is there another name for this part, possibly the same as the "trigger"? The manual is a Clymer printed by Intertec, and is supposed to be one of the best. I thank you for your input, and if you come up with any other possibilities, please post a reply or email me at: w.meador@worldnet.att.net <br /><br />Thanks again for your time and interest,<br /><br />Bill<br /><br />PS....Thanks for the link, I'm going to "Johns Old Mercury.com" now to see what I can find out.