225 OPTIMAX DFI Charging problems

Holotype1

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I have a pair of 2007 Optimax DFI engines, and they are not charging either batteries. Pulled the alternators and had them tested and are working great at 14V. Checked the fusible link and is in tact (not blown). Where do I look now?....kinda lost!
 

Texasmark

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14 -14.5 over 1000 rpm is the right number for a regulated output.

Have you changed anything about the time you noticed the problem that might have caused it?

Have you made any voltage measurements along the circuit route?

How many batteries do you have driving the two engines?

f the batteries have a reasonable charge (assuming they will take a charge and hold it), is there any problem starting and running the engines?

Have you had your batteries load tested? I realize that a load test has more to do with adequate starting current than being able to take a charge, but it could be another piece of information to help solve the problem.

How are the engines connected to the batteries...separate per engine, series/parallel arrangement of some sort.....what sort?

When is the last time you took your connections apart between the engines and batteries and cleaned them up nice and bright and put them back nice and tight?
 
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Holotype1

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Yeah, about a month ago, I went to use the boat and the batteries were dead (0.0 voltage and non rechargable). So, I purchase 2 new AGM marine batteries (1000MCA, 800CCA). I replaced a couple of main breaker pannel breakers(100A) and cleaned/scrubbed the wire ends with a wire brush.

My Garmins show a consistent drop in voltage as the day progressed from 12.5V, down to 11.5V, and was starting to have engine prolems due to the lower voltages.

Each engine has its own battery, and 3rd battery for the accessories. Ground cables connecting all 3 in parallel.

Since the batteries are brand new, they are having no problems taking a charge and holding it, and no starting problems at all.

So, as I stated above, I wire brushed the cable ends at the batteries when I installed the two new engine batteries. Looked at the connection at the 12V post on the engine and it looks good and still has the black corrosion protective coating on it from the factory.

The engines only have a little over 300hrs each on them. The cable ends attached at the alternator, starter selinoid, and the 12V post all look good and are tight!

Thanks for your help Texasmark!
 

Texasmark

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Maybe I overlooked something. You said you pulled the alternators. To me the alternator is the iron core coil mounted under the flywheel that gets activated by magnets on the flywheel as the flywheel spin, commonly referred to as the charging stators. Is that what you pulled and tested? What about the rectifier regulator modules?

I find it odd that you are having the same problem with both engines simultaneously. When you said the new batteries take a charge I assume you mean from an external "house power" operated charger.

Just looked up a mid '90's 225 and they used a belt driven alternator of 60 amps at max rating. Ok. If yours is like that it still has to have rectifiers and regulators to get your 14v dc. Having that voltage says your charging system is functioning. If you pulled the alternators and had them checked then you must have the rectifiers and regulators inside the cases with the alternator itself, like some GM alternators years ago.....don't know what is used today with the 120 amp alternators and above.

So there is an assumed red wire carrying the 14 volts from the alternators to a circuit breaker panel with 100 amp breakers to handle the 60 amps each and from there the wires goes to the batteries? Where do you loose the 14v? Do you loose it in the same place on both engines? I guess your Garmins are measuring the voltage at the battery terminals.

I'm thinking you have a common thread here since both are failing simultaneously. Only thing you said so far was the grounds are all parallel.......parallel to what? How does the alternator's grounds get back to the batteries? Possibly a strap around the case that is in electrical contact with the windings and the strap connects to the engine block, or the alternators are clamped to the engine block and get their ground that way. The battery return wire is connected to the engine block. That would complete the path. Since you can start the engines, the ground loop is functional as long as the alternator is tied into it.

Will wait for your reply.

Edit: I just went to bed and with this on my mind hard to sleep. Thought occurred to me: In smaller HP engines, there is an onboard fuse within the engine which is a black rubber holder molded into one of the red wires. I don't know if a 60 amp fuse would be mounted like that or not, but you can follow the red wire (probably) from your alternator output on each engine and sooner or later I'd bet you run across a fuse holder and fuse before the red wirer gets to the main wiring harness high current wire. Smaller engines use the input stud on the starting solenoid as a junction point and the alternator output goes there, the cable from the battery there, and outputs go off and do 12v chores. If you can't get 14v at the terminal where your battery + wire mounts to the engine you have a fuse and it's blown!

You said you had a main breaker panel with 2ea 100 A breakers.......is this part of the boat OEM equip, or did this come with the engine? If it's part of the boat then going to bet you have blown your engine fuses somehow. If you have your batteries all in parallel + to+ to+ and - to - to - and your alternators outputs connected to the parallel combination you in essence have the outputs of the alternators shorted together.

They don't like that in simple terms. You can have your accessories battery connected to one of your engine batteries and let that engine keep it charged, and you can have all the negatives connected together, but on your engine start batteries, the + terminals, red wires, need to be unique to the engine....one engine, one battery.

Again, I'll wait.
 
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Faztbullet

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Tex this motor has belt driven alternators...Holo check that you have battery voltage on purple wire at alternator with key on. Also if you have battery selector switchcheck to see if connections are loose on it.
 

Texasmark

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Tex this motor has belt driven alternators..

Is that excitation voltage for the regulator? Being purple I understand 12v supplied when key is on or start. Does he have internal fuses or how does he protect his wiring?
 

Texasmark

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Tex this motor has belt driven alternators...Holo check that you have battery voltage on purple wire at alternator with key on. Also if you have battery selector switchcheck to see if connections are loose on it.

Fazt: Been mulling this over. I'm looking for a common thread. He said both engines had the problem. I'd think if he had a problem on the purple wire on one he wouldn't necessarily have it on the other since there are 2 controls and 2 wiring harnesses. Anything's possible but........

What's this battery selector switch check you are talking about?
 

Holotype1

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Thanks everyone for your input.

I will check the purple wire tomorrow for 12V.

I checked all of the fuses and the fusible link on the engines, and the are all ok (used a volt meter to do so). The alternator case is the ground, so it is bolted to the engine and a ground wire comes off one of the bolts, and disappears into the wiring harness. Yes, this is an internally regulated alternator, and when checked at the alternator/starter repair shop he told me that they both charged at 14.1V and regulated well. The reason I took them off to get checked is because my boat is on a trailer on the side of the house, and I do not own a pair of ear muffs to run the engines.

Either engine is supplied by an individual battery with 12V, not on a 24 or 36V system. I have 2 selector switches, the first one covers batteries 1 & 2, and selector switch two covers 2 & 3. Both switches are brand new. I replaced them thinking that they were my source of the dead batteries, when actually it was my bad 100A breakers. I for sure tightened the cables to the lugs on the selector switches pretty tight.

My main breaker panel is OEM, and it has three 100A breakers between the two selector switches. They are set up so that only one of them feeds the breaker panel at a time, so I can choose which battery (1, 2, or 3) to feed all of the accessories. The batteries are all linked together with a ground cable only! There is only one positive or red cable per battery. Yes, that are taking a charge from an on board battery charger which is supplied by 110V.

If the 12V check on the purple wire ends up with no voltage, what is the next step?

Thanks again!
 

Texasmark

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Next step: Each engine is connected to a dedicated battery via a stand alone red wire from the engine to that batteries + terminal...Yes? You said that only one red wire is connected to the + terminal of each engine battery, so how do you get power to the breakers to feed to the switches?

Going to assume that only one red wire, the 4 AWG or whatever size it is comes from each engine to it's dedicated battery + terminal. But at least one other wire comes from each of those engine start battery + terminals and goes to your OEM breaker panel connecting to a 100A breaker each.

Now we are at the third battery, the accessory battery. Understanding it too connects to a 100A breaker and from those breakers you go to your selector switches to determine the battery source for running your accessories.....yes?

Fine, how do you charge the accessory battery; battery #3?

-------------------

Let's go back to the alternators and taking them one at a time, start with the large red output wire (I guess it's red as it is your 14v output). What is the voltage on those terminals right now, if you do nothing but walk up to the boat, pop the cowlings and measure the voltage to ground. It should be exactly the same voltage, to the 0.01 volt as you have at the battery supplying starting power to that engine. If it is, we have a problem with the boat. If it's not, we have a problem with the engines.

It's 10pm at my house and I'm going to bed, but I get up at night....old age thing. Since you have other things you have to do during the day, I'll come back on later tonight and read your responses if you follow up on what I said above. Will offer more suggestions after you reply.

Mark
 

Texasmark

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Didn't hear from you last night so I have some more ideas. If I understood you earlier you said you checked the battery red lead at the starting solenoids along with the red alternator high current output terminal also at that solenoid stud, and possibly a couple or more smaller red wires going off and doing housekeeping chores in your engines.

That being the case your alternator should be hooked up as it should be to your battery for charging purposes and the voltage measurement I mentioned last night isn't really necessary, although it is a data point.

The simultaneous engine problem keeps eating away at me. Gotta be a common thread.
---------------------------
The engines connect to a dual throttle/shift control assembly, correct? The assembly has 2 separate key starter switches, correct? Each has a purple or red with a purple stripe that goes back to the engine to excite the respective alternator along with roughly 8 other wires in a plastic covered harness and that wire is connected to the respective ignition switch on/start terminal, correct?

The fact that you can energize your starting solenoids (red wire with a yellow stripe probably) and start your engines says that your ignition switches have 12v applied so we aren't going up there chasing 12v. You aren't going to have 2 switches fail on the same terminal simultaneously at 300 hours under most circumstances.

Therefore I can't point to the controls or control wiring as a possible culprit.

Your onboard charger, is it a set of 5 ampere chargers in the same housing, common, but individual isolated outputs for each battery? You already said that they will satisfactorily recharge your batteries when plugged into 110V so one has to think that they are performing normally and that they are always connected to the batteries via terminal lugs under the wing nuts on the battery terminals so there isn't a problem with cross talk between them and the engines alternators.

Ok, let's do this. Charge up your batteries with your onboard charger or shop charger. Once all are charged, disconnect your engine batteries from everything but the single red wire that feeds starting current to the engines starting solenoid input stud and of course the black - wire is still connected. I'd wrap the terminals you take off with electrical tape to ensure that battery #3 doesn't accidentally get hooked to them and they touch a ground somewhere and cause a spark.

Take your voltmeter with you and go to some water backing your trailer in like you were going to launch but don't. Crank one engine at a time and with the throttle above 1k rpm, check for 14v give or take at the 12v distribution point, the input stud of the starting solenoid. If you don't have it, do as Fazt mentioned and check your red/purple stripe or purple, whichever at your alternator for 12v. Is there any way that your drive belt or pulley on the alternator could be slipping? Is the drive belt cogged or just a plain vanilla v belt. What about the tension?

If you have 14v at that solenoid input terminal the engine is ok and you have something down line draining the batteries. I really find this hard to stomach as you have a 60 amp capability and at 12v you are looking at 720 watts of power going somewhere if you can't show any kind of charging voltage increase while running. The output current wire from the alternator is probably a #8 and if it were running 60 amps for any length of time it would be warm or worse to the touch.

Back to the nagging sensation....both engines are doing the same thing.......just doesn't make sense. No smoking gun??????

After you finish one engine do the other.

If you can get your engines to charge with the other batter(ies) wires disconnected, and have a fully charged #3 battery, since you are there why not make a day of it and worry about what's wrong when you get back. Will one storage battery last you a days outing? One word of caution here is that the alternators are made to keep a fully charged battery charged. They are not designed to charge a discharged battery. So if you run your #3 down, don't swap batteries with an engine start or you can overheat your alternator.

Ok, will wait for this answer.

Good luck,
Mark
 

Dukedog

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its called an Amprobe.. measures ac and/or dc current.. that alt should put out minimum of 35 amps at 2000 rpm.... a GOOD (late model) shop should be able ta test it.
 

Texasmark

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its called an Amprobe.. measures ac and/or dc current.. that alt should put out minimum of 35 amps at 2000 rpm.... a GOOD (late model) shop should be able ta test it.
My Amprobe (brand) current measuring device, is a clamp on type and the wire upon which you clamp is the primary of a transformer. The clamps are laminated steel and are the "soft iron core" of the transformer. the secondary of the transformer is in the handle and the meter measures voltage generated by the current in the primary winding..".integral, sine wt/dt". Being such, dc will not couple across to the secondary other than the initial excitation spike. So I guess your's gets it's DC reading some other way.

Another way would be a current shunt that is a large for the current to be measured (to keep heat rise out of the measurement) calibrated resistor and has 2 terminals for attaching a voltmeter. The line is broken and the shunt is inserted in series. Using Ohms law the current is extrapolated from the voltage and resistance.

I think we can assume that current is zero between the alternator and the battery.

Edit: I think we lost our subject....Mr. Holo
 
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Dukedog

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number of meters on tha market that do it.. not jus Amprobe... google is your friend. we've used 'em for years on variable speed drives on conveyers (car plants) mostly......
 
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Dukedog

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never mind...

I have a pair of 2007 Optimax DFI engines, and they are not charging either batteries. Pulled the alternators and had them tested and are working great at 14V. Checked the fusible link and is in tact (not blown). Where do I look now?....kinda lost!

when this is done they should have been able ta tell ya tha amperage they were makin'... lotsa alternators will make tha "voltage" but fail to produce tha amperage to run tha electrics with extra ta charge tha battery.......
 

Holotype1

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No, you didn't loose me! Between the weather (hurricane Erika...I lost a couple of palm fronds....) and work, I have not had the opportunity to do more checking. But that changed yesterday afternoon. I went to go put the alternators back on the engines, and checked for 12V at the purple wire with the ignition "on". Both engines registered 12V, so I decided to do another check of the system wires, and every thing looked good. I bought a set of muffs to run the engines, fired up the stbd one and was getting 14.1V on the mechanical gauge, and the smartcraft display. Checket at the 12V community post and was gettting 12.4V at 2200RPM.

Did the same with the port engine, and nothing.........so I started retracing my steps, and when I accidentally moved the wire coming form the alternator to the 12V community post, I saw a voltage fluctuation. This isthe wire with the 100A fusible link in line. I pulled the wire off, to check for resistance and just check it out. The wire is definately bad, but if you hold it just right I can get continuity throught it......not really sure what is up with it. The fuse is covered with a good see thru heat shrink tubing from the factory and does not look burnt throught it. I have a feeling I found the culprit, though I dont understand how a 100A fuse could blow when there is nothing on the boat producing that much amperage. Will buy a new one and change it out today. I will let you know the results.

Thanks again for everyones help. I really appreciate it!!!!
Ryan
 

Texasmark

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On the 100a fuse blowing, fuses separate by melting. If you had a bad joint, bad wire, corroded (on the inside where current flows) connection, all nearby, and you pass current through it, you have watts, W = current squared x resistance. For high currents, being second order, the watts go up fast. Watts dissipated are heat and heat melts fuses...........glad you are making progress. Like I said, it has been a mystery to me looking for the common cause smoking gun. Looks like at least one is working and that simplifies things immensely.

I guess you are in Florida. Hope you come out ok. Nice place to live when the weather is nice.
 
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